Tesla and SpaceX Reputations Plummet in Major Poll

[REM]

He said that USAID sent condoms to Gaza.

Are these the sources you are using for validation?

 

[ThatGuyBo]

Are these the sources you are using for validation?

Instead of strawmanning, address his claim.

You ask for a lot of evidence because you do not believe the claims but provide none yourself to back up your counterclaim/stance/disagreement/whatever you want to call it.

Please provide evidence to back up this claim that you are defending:

 

[Shayrooo]

Meh.. all the democrats that championed EM bailed.. politics does that to people. People that care too much about politics will flip their opinions based on what is in en vogue with their stated party. Happens in both sides equally… For the rest of us… Tesla and SpaceX will continue to make far and away the best products (FSD, reusable rockets, etc) that no competitor is even close to touching.. but those that think less of Tesla and SpaceX can go invest and buy Honda prologues and champion Blue Origin.. that’s everyone’s right to choose inferior products for what they believe. No qualms about it nor any disagreement. Not how I roll, but a CEOs political opinions don’t sway me like others. To each their own

Very well said!!

 

[BrockN]

Instead of strawmanning, address his claim.

You ask for a lot of evidence because you do not believe the claims but provide none yourself to back up your counterclaim/stance/disagreement/whatever you want to call it.

Please provide evidence to back up this claim that you are defending:

What blows my mind is the absolute absence of critical thought when faced with nonsense like "condoms for Gaza".

There were about 2 million people in Gaza. How many are screwing? Account for age, gender...500,000 is probably a generous number.

5 million bucks. At wholesale, how many would that buy? At least 4 per dollar I'd think. Probably more. So at least 20 million of them.

That adds to at least 40 per functioning dick. In a country where people live in blown up buildings, near starvation, with compromised water and sewage systems. Definitely conditions conducive with getting it on. Yet people believe that someone in a government agency said "I don't think those people need food or medicine or hygiene products - condoms will solve everything!"?

I honestly don't know who are dumber. The people in government that peddle this swill, or the fools that slurp it up.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Show. me. where. Tesla. made. this. promise. Why is this such a hard ask?

I think you keep confusing what proof is. I want to see something in writing. Did you purchase FSD outright? If so, show us the purchase agreement and I'll point you to the sections where you are mistaken on features and disclaimers.

Most people don't fully understand living software, software agreements, or even technical feature descriptions.



Nope. I'm going to stop you right there. You keep doing this thing where you quasi-quote someone and then huff and puff when I ask for you to show us this 'promise'.



Nowhere near, because you just did the quasi-quote thing again. I don't want your recollection of a supposed claim; I want the actual claim.



Still waiting for this "promise" to be fully articulated and documented. Where is it?



Everyone always seems to be too busy RIGHT when the meat and potatoes enter the discussion ????

“With full self-driving, you will be able to summon your Tesla from pretty much anywhere. Once it picks you up, you will be able to sleep, read or do anything else enroute to your destination. You will also be able to add your car to the Tesla shared fleet just by tapping a button on the Tesla phone app and have it generate income for you while you're at work or on vacation, significantly offsetting and at times potentially exceeding the monthly loan or lease cost.”

- Elon Musk in Tesla Master Plan Part Deux, July 20 2016 (since conveniently removed from Tesla’s News Blog history, but still available via google).

1. January 10, 2016, Musk said in a press conference that you’d be able to summon a Tesla from across the country within two years. That same day, Tesla Motors' official blog post announced software update 7.1. It stated: "Using Summon, once you arrive home and exit Model S or Model X, it will do the rest: open your garage door, enter your garage, park itself, and shut down. In the morning, you wake up, walk out the front door, and summon your car. It will open the garage door and come to greet you. During this Beta stage of Summon, we would like customers to become familiar with it on private property. Eventually, your Tesla will be able to drive anywhere across the country to meet you, charging itself along the way. It will synch with your calendar to know exactly when to arrive." This was in writing on Tesla’s web page. None of it happened as stated and promised. None. This is the smoking gun that Tesla would like to have back. But there’s more. Way more.
2. July 20, 2016: Musk announced that all Tesla vehicles being manufactured as of that date have the hardware necessary for “full self-driving.” Oops.
3. April 19, 2019: at this Autonomy Day event, Musk said that Tesla would have over a million robotaxis on the road by mid-2020: “Next year, for sure, we will have over 1 million robotaxis on the road.” That’s clearly a promised feature never delivered, and customers placed reliance on it.
4. 2020: Musk claimed FSD would be “feature complete” by the end of the year. Right.
5. 2023: Musk admitted his previous timelines were “overly optimistic” but promised full autonomy “later this year.” It is now May 2025. Still nada.
6. May 20, 2025: Musk claims that robotaxi will roll next month with no physical driver attendant. He also said on Tuesday that there will be “a step-change improvement in the car” in “three to four months.” I predict none of this will occur in the manner or anywhere close to the time frame to which he committed. It isn’t hard to be correct on this.

I relied on that July 20, 2016 statement when purchasing my fourth Tesla, a Model X, including paying (a paltry $3k) for FSD. It was never delivered in any form, even beta, before I later traded it in. It is now nearly nine years later, and still no actual FSD as he described it on that day, or anything even close.

Don’t get me wrong, I knew, he knew, and everyone around him at Tesla knew it was a lie. No, it wasn’t just a prediction or an aspirational statement later proven wrong - because he later admitted that he made these unrealistic statements that he KNEW were such in order to spur the engineers - he KNEW it was BS. His engineers and attorneys were and are regularly horrified at what he promises, often hearing what they must do in a press event, without consultation on what’s actually possible. However, we liked the aspiration so gave him slack.

I have had every version of AP and FSD, find the current versions on my two new Teslas to be amazing, world-changing, unrivaled by any other manufacturer. But he was, and still is, with respect to FSD capabilities, or whether the cars made in 2016 actually had all the required hardware, full of sh*t. Elon is also full of sh*t when saying the HW3 vehicles, or even HW4 vehicles without interior or front bumper cameras can ever actually perform FSD. They can’t and won’t. No HW3 model will ever receive an update to HW4, and some HW4 vehicles, maybe all, will never take your kid to school unattended.

There is now talk of HW5 because it is clear that every camera will need a washer (my wife’s ‘26 MY has a front bumper camera washer, but no other Teslas have even that one washer - but eight will likely be required), and the final FSD-capable car, if it ever exists, will need one or more external microphones to hear emergency vehicles and other audible inputs necessary for safe driving.

That WRITTEN and oral over-promising induced customer purchases, and for that Musk and Tesla are liable. I just bought two new Teslas, remain a Musk fan, believe that no individual has done more in the past 200 years, maybe longer, to change the world in a positive way, but those two things can live in the same place. I am glad he exists, understand that the bad comes with the positive, and maybe it takes one to have the other, but to say there’s no bad, that he never lied, is just mindless defense.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Ok, Judge Dredd. Clearly you are the only one who can have an opinion on law on this forum lol. Guess that's a wrap! Everyone else pack it up.


I'll keep defending my position on this matter:

There are a ton of people here irrationally and wilfully making errant claims about FSD, and what Tesla has supposedly promised about the program.

Still waiting for a hard quote. Anyone out there? Bueller?

See above. Hard quotes.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

I'm asking for a couple of concrete examples of lies. Why have you not provided any?

See my latest long post. There are many more, but that’s more than a few. I’m not even getting into the “pedo guy” event or “funding secured” because he was ultimately found not liable to the claimants in courts - but they were clearly lies intended to sway outcomes.

 

[PungoteagueDave]

Are these the sources you are using for validation?

No dude, the words out of his mouth.

 

[REM]

This has some claims about both HW3 supporting FSD Feature Complete as well as a Robotaxi network by "next year", This is from April 19th, 2022:

first video with a timestamp:

by the middle of next year we'll have over a million Tesla cars on the road with full self-driving Hardware feature
3:13:42
complete at a reliably level that we would consider that no one needs to pay
3:13:48
attention meaning you could go to sleep in your from our standpoint if you fast for a year should look

maybe a year
3:13:55 maybe a year in three months but next year for sure we will have over
3:14:03 a million Robo taxis on the road the
3:14:10 fleet wakes up with an over-the-air update that's all it takes

I think what's happening here is that you guys listen to every word except the ones of him remembering to qualify his statements using "I think", "maybe", "perhaps", "we hope". "our guess".

Do you not understand the difference between a lofty goal, and what constitutes as a contractual promise? Did Elon get up on a stage and say:

"Hey guys, I promise you will have more features 6 months from now, and if you don't I'll give you your money back!" ? No. He did not. Everything he relays has been a timeline based off the current sentiment from the program developers at Tesla.

2nd video with a timestamp:

just so we
3:31:48
understand the definitions we need to refer to feature complete self-driving it sounds like you're talking level five
3:31:54
no geofence is that what's

expected by the end of year just so and then the
3:31:59
regulatory process I mean have you talked to regulators about this this seems quite an aggressive timeline

Is an expectation a promise? Or is it a guess based on the current data they have available?

3rd video with timestamp:

35:33
self-driving computer is literally 20 times faster Victoire 21 times faster than the nvidia system that are places
35:41
and we expect to be feature complete with autonomy by the end of this year so
35:49
you know that you'll still need to supervise the autonomy but it should be
35:54
able to go from your garage to your parking space at work without intervention so then what then will will
36:03
obviously put on billions of miles of testing and then I think, probably some
36:10
time next year I you'll be able to have the car be autonomous without
36:15
supervision and then sometime thereafter we'll be able to convince investigators
36:21
that this the autonomy is safe enough that the car could actually go around
36:27
with no one in it so and it's really the
36:32
critical elements for that are having billions of miles of testing ultimately

I'm going to stop there, even though you have a couple more videos with timestamps. I think we get the point.

Absolutely zero promises were made in any of those videos. If this is the strongest thing we have, then I have to say we

 

[REM]

Please provide evidence to back up this claim that you are defending:

You want me to provide evidence for a claim that someone else is making? Interesting.

Here is a .gov website you can consider:
https://craiggoldman.house.gov/DOGE

 

[REM]

No dude, the words out of his mouth.

So you fundamentally don't believe Elon when he says the Doge team is uncovering system fraud, waste, and abuse within the federal government, or what?

You think he is just making stuff up for funzies?

 

[REM]

“With full self-driving, you will be able to summon your Tesla from pretty much anywhere. Once it picks you up, you will be able to sleep, read or do anything else enroute to your destination. You will also be able to add your car to the Tesla shared fleet just by tapping a button on the Tesla phone app and have it generate income for you while you're at work or on vacation, significantly offsetting and at times potentially exceeding the monthly loan or lease cost.”

- Elon Musk in Tesla Master Plan Part Deux, July 20 2016 (since conveniently removed from Tesla’s News Blog history, but still available via google).

sorry, I'm not taking your cherry picked quotes. Give me a source that I can view myself. ?‍ Did you see the response from someone else above where they provided timestamps for videos? Yeah, do something like that. But don't be like him, and find sections where you think a promise is made, and I have to go back and highlight qualified statements like "I think", "maybe", "we hope". Those things are not promises.

The paperwork you sign is a promise. (p.s. that paperwork explains terms and conditions, and it includes language like "some of the features shown are not in full release and have no guarantees).

? this the critical piece you guys keep refusing to acknowledge.

What you did in that huge wall of text above is give chatGPT this prompt:

"Elon is a liar. give me some quotes of instances where he lied". And then you copied and pasted it here lmao. So incredibly lazy.

So, are you going to actually provide context for the above, where ALL OF US CAN READ FOR OURSELVES or not? Because I'm absolutely not taking your word for it.

(you're not. you're just going to complain that I'm not taking your copy/pasta job above for the gospel)

 

[REM]

I honestly don't know who are dumber. The people in government that peddle this swill, or the fools that slurp it up.

It's not incompetence, it's outright deceit. That money is earmarked for "condoms" on paper, but will definitely go to skunkworks projects where more people around the world get to enjoy the same evil doings of our government officials.

It's all a very sick, wicked system.

 

[REM]

July 20, 2016: Musk announced that all Tesla vehicles being manufactured as of that date have the hardware necessary for “full self-driving.” Oops.

This is a factual statement. They released the first public version of FSD, and all new cars rolling off the line were capable of running it.

What about that don't you understand?

Which part was a "lie"?

 

[PungoteagueDave]

So you fundamentally don't believe Elon when he says the Doge team is uncovering system fraud, waste, and abuse within the federal government, or what?

You think he is just making stuff up for funzies?

I did NOT say anything of the sort. Stop making stuff up. I totally support almost everything Musk and DOGE has done and is doing inside the Federal government. I am all in. But he also lied, had to “walk back” what he claims are mistakes. Dude, the condom thing was patently obviously false to even a casual observer - anyone paying a second of attention could know it was impossible to be true - yet he stated it as fact and further extended it as a basic representative example of what’s wrong with government (would be great if it were so) - and in the process destroyed a significant chunk of his own credibility. As a result, his ability, and that of DOGE, to be effective going forward is diminished. Oh, and he also lost at least a few thousand Tesla customers, destroying some amount of shareholder value as a buyproduct.

Again, these two things can live in the same place. He can fundamentally be a world-changing force, and a major f-up. He is most definitely both. Again, it may come with the cost/benefit - without one you don’t get the other, so we must take the bad with the good. But it is beyond silly and self-destructive in terms of YOUR reputation to simply deny everything, or even to put the best possible spin on it, as is your wont. He does and did lie regularly, and does at least exaggerate almost every time he opens his mouth.

Have you read the Walter Isaacson book on Musk? It does a good job of unwrapping Elon’s psychology, as seen by him and the people closest to him. A must read. Listen to his long Joe Rogan podcast sessions. Elon is very illuminating when he becomes quiet and introspective - he knows that he lies and pushes the truth constantly. But he also makes amazing human progress beyond anything we’ve seen in hundreds of years. Booster landings were supposedly impossible. Near earth satellite internet, Neuralink restoring human connections, EV’s that take massive market share and are amazing advancements on any measure, etc. But then almost everything he ever says about the Boring Company, and every promise he ever makes about that stupid venture is a lie or near-lie. There are so many. You asked for just one - and I gave you many. There are MANY, MANY more. Just look at his relationships with women. Or men for that matter.

Musk chews people up and spits them out - not because he is trustworthy - he is not - it is a personality thing emerging from his driven approach and Asperger's. Without all that negative or otherwise limiting baggage, I don’t think we get landing boosters or my Cybertruck so I will tolerate it - but not deny it. The people who are his real friends and close family don’t deny this either. What you are doing here is a real disservice to Elon Musk and those close to him - and to yourself. You wont even tolerate anyone SAYING the truth, because, apparently you cannot handle the truth. Or maybe you have a financial stake in spinning the story?