Towing Range Numbers?

[Keeney]

It's not clear to me what you are pushing back on.

(If you are talking to me)
I was pushing back on the idea that the adjustable suspension can in any meaningful way change the load distribution between front and back. You keep saying that it can somehow help the load distribution by transferring weight or the loading from the back axle to the front axle. It can't.
I just want to make sure that people hauling heavy trailers with heavy tongue weights know they still need load distribution hitches. We seem to agree on that.

Sure, the adjustable air suspension has some other benefits, but load distribution is not one of them.

 

[HaulingAss]

(If you are talking to me)
I was pushing back on the idea that the adjustable suspension can in any meaningful way change the load distribution between front and back. You keep saying that it can somehow help the load distribution by transferring weight or the loading from the back axle to the front axle. It can't.
I just want to make sure that people hauling heavy trailers with heavy tongue weights know they still need load distribution hitches. We seem to agree on that.

Sure, the adjustable air suspension has some other benefits, but load distribution is not one of them.

I'm done trying to educate you.

 

[HitchHiker71]

You got me thinking. I'm not sure if I even want load leveling when towing. If I'm carrying my own camper, I usually work to make sure that everything is level before even hitching. And then set the load levelling to keep it that way.

If the truck changes height, that will change the pitch of the trailer.

So the good news is that you really don't have to worry about this. So let's assume the Class IV tow hitch receiver is 15" off the ground when unloaded and the air suspension is set to normal ride height (for the purposes of this example we'll also assume that the tow ball attachment is also 15" - I actually use an adjustable tow ball attachment - like in the below linked video). The only thing you need to know is to set up your camper's WDH with this measurement in mind - as the air suspension is going to keep the truck's ride height at a consistent 15" for the tow hitch. You can use the entry/exit mode to drop the truck's air suspension about 3" to ease mounting your camper onto the tow ball - then raise the air suspension up to normal ride height once you've got the tow ball properly positioned underneath the WDH mount. Video as an example:

 

[Woodrick]

So the good news is that you really don't have to worry about this. So let's assume the Class IV tow hitch receiver is 15" off the ground when unloaded and the air suspension is set to normal ride height (for the purposes of this example we'll also assume that the tow ball attachment is also 15" - I actually use an adjustable tow ball attachment - like in the below linked video). The only thing you need to know is to set up your camper's WDH with this measurement in mind - as the air suspension is going to keep the truck's ride height at a consistent 15" for the tow hitch. You can use the entry/exit mode to drop the truck's air suspension about 3" to ease mounting your camper onto the tow ball - then raise the air suspension up to normal ride height once you've got the tow ball properly positioned underneath the WDH mount. Video as an example:

I understand what you are saying. I think that I agree with the video (although I didn't watch it).

But the situation that is being discussed is with trailers large enough to require load leveling hitch. And while your statement may apply completely, I'm not sure.
Load leveling hitches are designed to put down-force on the front of the tow vehicle to keep it from squatting. A 10,000lb trailer has about 1,000 lbs of hitch weight. Load leveling hitches spread that weight over the rear and front wheels.

 

[HaulingAss]

I understand what you are saying. I think that I agree with the video (although I didn't watch it).

But the situation that is being discussed is with trailers large enough to require load leveling hitch. And while your statement may apply completely, I'm not sure.
Load leveling hitches are designed to put down-force on the front of the tow vehicle to keep it from squatting. A 10,000lb trailer has about 1,000 lbs of hitch weight. Load leveling hitches spread that weight over the rear and front wheels.

Weight distribution hitches are necessary in cases when the tongue weight is too high to tow without .

Sure, you could set up a truck without a load-leveling suspension to tow a particular load just as well as a truck like the Cybertruck that will adapt automatically, but then when you take the trailer off the tow vehicle, the modified suspension is now non-optium, harsh and topping out, and the rates of the dampers (if they aren't automatically adjustable like the Cyberuck dampers are) will be too high (too much damping). A load leveling suspension adapts to big and small trailers, weight distribution hitch or not. And heavy or light cargo loadings.

It doesn't remove the need for a weight distribution hitch on all tow combos, but it helps, in the same way that replacing suspension components (springs and dampers) can take a truck and trailer combo that previously needed a weight distribution hitch and turn it into a tow combo that no longer needs a weight distribution hitch. That's because the improved geometry of the modified tow setup, caused by having springs and dampers matched to the load, reduces the weight transfered to the tow ball, especially when travelling on undulating road surfaces. And all road surfaces undulate.

 

[Woodrick]

Weight distribution hitches are necessary in cases when the tongue weight is too high to tow without .

Sure, you could set up a truck without a load-leveling suspension to tow a particular load just as well as a truck like the Cybertruck that will adapt automatically, but then when you take the trailer off the tow vehicle, the modified suspension is now non-optium, harsh and topping out, and the rates of the dampers (if they aren't automatically adjustable like the Cyberuck dampers are) will be too high (too much damping). A load leveling suspension adapts to big and small trailers, weight distribution hitch or not. And heavy or light cargo loadings.

It doesn't remove the need for a weight distribution hitch on all tow combos, but it helps, in the same way that replacing suspension components (springs and dampers) can take a truck and trailer combo that previously needed a weight distribution hitch and turn it into a tow combo that no longer needs a weight distribution hitch. That's because the improved geometry of the modified tow setup, caused by having springs and dampers matched to the load, reduces the weight transfered to the tow ball, especially when travelling on undulating road surfaces. And all road surfaces undulate.

How in the heck does a load-leveling suspension take 1,000 lb from behind the rear wheels and push it to the front axle. No matter how high or low the rear and is, it is still 1,000 lb feet beyond the rear axle.

 

[Crissa]

Please stop spreading this misleading and possibly dangerous incorrect information about air suspension being ANY kind of substitute for correct weight distribution.

You keep changing what people say to different terms, so it makes your advice difficult to parse or understand.

When the rear of a vehicle is laden, the rear axle sinks. The front axle is the pivot point for that motion, reducing the weight on the front axle. Raising the rear will push the vehicle's center of gravity back towards the front axle.

Claiming that it doesn't, is just ignoring physics.

Whether this is good or bad for the towing configuration is unrelated to this basic physics.

-Crissa

 

[Crissa]

How in the heck does a load-leveling suspension take 1,000 lb from behind the rear wheels and push it to the front axle. No matter how high or low the rear and is, it is still 1,000 lb feet beyond the rear axle.

Because it's not the 1000 pounds on the back it's moving, it's the center of weight for the tow vehicle that it's moving. The 1000 pounds beyond the rear axle moved that center backwards, leveling the truck moves it forwards.

The same reason if you're pulling something you'd lean your body weight forward.

-Crissa

 

[Appel1978]

Just wandering everyone wants bigger tires but just for the sake what if I wanted to go down a few inches in tire size in theory it would take less energy to turn those wheels due to less weight and circumference of tire just like changing gears on a 10 speed bicycle. Yes you can argue you loose milage also because the smaller tire turns more rotations to get the the same destination as a larger tire. But I'd think that would be less minimal of a difference than the saving on power needed to turn bigger tires. What do you all think? How many miles if any would you gain on smaller tires on a lighter rim also?

 

[Woodrick]

Just wandering everyone wants bigger tires but just for the sake what if I wanted to go down a few inches in tire size in theory it would take less energy to turn those wheels due to less weight and circumference of tire just like changing gears on a 10 speed bicycle. Yes you can argue you loose milage also because the smaller tire turns more rotations to get the the same destination as a larger tire. But I'd think that would be less minimal of a difference than the saving on power needed to turn bigger tires. What do you all think? How many miles if any would you gain on smaller tires on a lighter rim also?

You seem to forget that when you shift gears, it may be easier to pedal, but then you may have to pedal twice as much. Same overall energy.

But there are other impacts, such as sprung and unsprung weight.

 

[HitchHiker71]

New video of a CT towing 11k lbs with results. CT AWD dual motor with AT tires in 32 degree weather. Clifs notes 90 miles going from 100% to 2% using 108kw at 1193wh/mile.

 

[Keeney]

You keep changing what people say to different terms, so it makes your advice difficult to parse or understand.

When the rear of a vehicle is laden, the rear axle sinks. The front axle is the pivot point for that motion, reducing the weight on the front axle. Raising the rear will push the vehicle's center of gravity back towards the front axle.

Claiming that it doesn't, is just ignoring physics.

Whether this is good or bad for the towing configuration is unrelated to this basic physics.

-Crissa

Wrong. So Wrong.

Try it. Put a scale under the wheels of a CT (or any truck). Then load 1000 lbs on the hitch. Then check the scales. Then pump up the air suspension in the back to raise the back of the truck. Then check the scales. There will be negligible weight shifted from back to front due to the angle change.

The angle changes like a degree when you level the truck. The CG is only a couple feet off the ground. The trig is easy enough: sin 1 degree x 24 inches = 0.4 inches forward. Divide by 1/2 the wheel base (145 inches) - the weight shifted by about 1/2 of 1%. Which is like 30 lbs.

 

[Crissa]

Wrong. So Wrong.

Try it. Put a scale under the wheels of a CT (or any truck). Then load 1000 lbs on the hitch. Then check the scales. Then pump up the air suspension in the back to raise the back of the truck. Then check the scales. There will be negligible weight shifted from back to front due to the angle change.

The angle changes like a degree when you level the truck. The CG is only a couple feet off the ground. The trig is easy enough: sin 1 degree x 24 inches = 0.4 inches forward. Divide by 1/2 the wheel base (145 inches) - the weight shifted by about 1/2 of 1%. Which is like 30 lbs.

I'm willing to be wrong, but your overly simplistic math is just not useful here. It's only one part. And small changes to axle weight change traction by, like, alot? That's the whole point.

You do know the height of the center of gravity changes when you add a load, right? It's not where the weight intersects the truck, but where the weight actually is.

The two axles are not independent, to become level again your center of gravity has to be pulled back to the middle. Otherwise your front wheels would just leave the ground.

Small things, big effects. Like the load leveling hitch - it's a small thing which changes the point of pressure away from the ball. Like two arms clasped is stronger than two hands clasped.

Yeah, just leveling the truck won't help if your trailer isn't balanced. Or if you're exceeding the hitch weight. But leveling the truck is how the truck moves its center of gravity back towards the middle. That's one reason why the Cybertruck is stiff.

-Crissa

 

[Keeney]

I'm willing to be wrong, but your overly simplistic math is just not useful here. It's only one part. And small changes to axle weight change traction by, like, alot? That's the whole point.

You do know the height of the center of gravity changes when you add a load, right? It's not where the weight intersects the truck, but where the weight actually is.

The two axles are not independent, to become level again your center of gravity has to be pulled back to the middle. Otherwise your front wheels would just leave the ground.

Small things, big effects. Like the load leveling hitch - it's a small thing which changes the point of pressure away from the ball. Like two arms clasped is stronger than two hands clasped.

Yeah, just leveling the truck won't help if your trailer isn't balanced. Or if you're exceeding the hitch weight. But leveling the truck is how the truck moves its center of gravity back towards the middle. That's one reason why the Cybertruck is stiff.

-Crissa

The math IS that simple. Sorry. But the idea that you can skip the load distribution hitch by levelling the truck with air suspension is flat wrong.
Air suspension cannot somehow move 11100 lbs of tongue weight from behind the rear axle to be evenly distributed on the front and back.

Towing without proper load distribution makes it that much more difficult to control the trailer under emergency braking or steering. Some towing newbie is going to understeer their way into the ditch listening to your magical tesla thinking.

 

[DumpsterFire]

The math IS that simple. Sorry. But you are flat wrong.
Please stop telling people that they won't need a load distribution hitch because air suspension somehow moves 11100 lbs of tongue weight from behind the rear axle to be evenly distributed on the front and back. Towing without proper load distribution just makes it that much more difficult to control the trailer under emergency braking or steering. Some towing newbie is going to understeer their way into the ditch listening to your magical tesla thinking.

Uh oh @Crissa

seems like there’s some mansplaining going on here…. ???

Where’s my popcorn??