Why I'm Getting The F150 Lightning

[CyberMoose]

If it's a perk to get people to use EVs how exactly is it theft? So now I don't get to use all the options on my vehicle because I happen to plug in at work? Do I have drain the entire battery and recharge at home before I can use the bed outlets to cut some wood?? Maybe I shouldn't turn on the radio either because that's stolen electricity?

There is a difference between using the features of your vehicle and intentionally going out of your way to drain your battery everyday to power your home and recharge at work just to cut down on your electricity bill.

My workplace has a kitchen that they keep stocked for employees to use. It has lots of bread, bagels, fruit, vegetables, even some meat individually packages for meat. No one would care if i made myself some toast or even made a sandwich. But if I show up on monday after a weekend and start stuffing my face because I only eat at work to save on groceries. That's different and my employers would probbaly notice and even start putting restrictions on how much people can take from the kitchen.

I'm sure this will definitely be an issue for workplaces around the world when EV's become more common than ICE vehicles. Even if someone doesn't have V2H, just draining the battery with an extension cord and power bar to power their appliances and gadgets will eventually be noticed. Once workplace chargers start being something that is marketed to businesses, it won't be hard to measure the electricity used, they could even make it so a charger requires an employee ID card to start and then they'll know how much everyone uses.

I expect that within the next 5 years, there will be a workplace charger that is marketed, which will allow the employers to set up profiles for their employees for maximum charge limits. They might do something like 20kW, or maybe they'll set specific charge limits based on your listed address, so you only get the charge required for driving too and from work.

I also expect most employers, for jobs like minimum wage, or warehouses, will probably just put chargers that have a fee. some employers might even try to make a small profit from it.

 

[firsttruck]

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Sandy Munro Shows Tesla's SHOCKING Lead Over Ford
Jun 27, 2021
Solving The Money Problem



--------------------------

Now know why FORD called "Fix OR Repair Daily". It is designed in not an accident.

Ford had years to design Mustang Mach-e & Ford is supposed to have over 100 years of automotive design & manufacturing experience.

ICE vehicles have cooling systems so Ford does not have excuse that they are newbies to cooling systems.

Only a year difference in launch between Mustang Mach-e & F-150 Lightning, in last 40 years Ford has never innovated that fast.

With same Ford management, will F-150 Lightning be any different?

Better wait for Sandy Munro tear-down of Ford F-150 Lightning before you buy F-150 Lightning to see if it is any better.


----------- comments on youtube ---------------

RJ 8U
True statement:
Previos Ford CEO said the Mach is the embodiment of Ford's best and brightest engineers.
Ford has 175 billions in debt and 30 billions in cash go figured how will Ford will go bankrupt in less than 5yrs.

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Mike S
Ford needed to create a new revenue stream for their dealers.

User manual maintenance schedule probably looks like:
3,000 Miles - Remove Frunk and re-tighten all 31 hose clamps
6,000 Miles - Remove Frunk and re-tighten all 31 hose clamps
10,000 Miles - Remove Frunk and replace hoses (hoses may fail with all that re-tightening) and clamps

Repeat this maintenance schedule every 10,00 miles.

--------------------------

chris heath
" 'ere guv, I just dropped that box, when I was changing the hoses". "Which box?" " The one that says scrap if dropped". "That's the idea, charge the customer $250 dollars, it cost us $50". "OK, guv."

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David Elliott
> @Mark nelson Ford will simplify in time?
Ford is a big, well established car manufacturer that fully understands how to build cars and make profit. So why are they going out of their way to produce a bodge job of odd parts all stuck together with hoses and huge wiring looms?


Yourcrazybear
> @Mark nelson Ford will simplify in time?
They have known since the 80's about the risk for leakage and are still creating a leaking spaghetti monster with their new car. They have had 30 years of time to fix this issue and they haven't. But still you are sure that they will? How much time does Ford need to change?

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Peter Jackson
Looks like that entire system was designed so that the service departments have many billable hours after the 4 year warranty . Remember They need to keep their dealership model alive, and if they make it engineered not to fail, the dealers will not be happy.

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Om Auto
Ford figured out how to incentivize the dealerships to sell EVs. The Spaghetti-Valve is engineering genius! It’s not easy to take a low maintenance EV and design it to bring in service revenue for decades to come. Brilliant!

MadStyle
Come on, It''s Ford we're talking about, all that is intended, Their EVs will need regular servicing like their legacy vehicles to keep those Ford Dealerships open with their money making Servicing shops.


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[firsttruck]

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2016 Official Ford Bulletin - Coolant Leak 5.0L DOHC – 2015 Ford F-150
coolant leak caused by a heater outlet hose becoming disconnected at the heater outlet.
April 6, 2016
https://ford.oemdtc.com/907/coolant-leak-5-0l-dohc-2015-ford-f-150-mustang

--------------------------------------

2017 - Ford recalls 570K vehicles for fire risk, door latch trouble
Dealers will install a coolant level sensor and a warning light on the dashboard.
Ford is also adding 211,000 vehicles to a 2015 recall to replace faulty door latches.
Door latches have been a major problem for Ford vehicles during the past three years, resulting in investigations by the U.S. NHTSA and recalls of over 3 million vehicles.
March 29, 2017
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ford-recalls-570k-vehicles-for-fire-risk-door-latch-trouble/

--------------------------------------

2018 - Ford to recall 200,000 vehicles to fix coolant leaks and fire risk
Tom Krisher The Associated Press
Published Wednesday, January 3, 2018
https://www.ctvnews.ca/autos/ford-to-fix-coolant-leaks-in-vehicles-recalled-for-fire-risk-1.3744183

Ford Coolant Leak Recall to Begin Soon
At the time of the March 2017 recall announcement, Ford had recorded 29 such fires.
Ford Escapes, Fiesta STs, Fusions and Transit Connects at risk of fires due to coolant leaks.
By David A. Wood, CarComplaints.com
January 4, 2018
https://www.carcomplaints.com/news/2018/ford-coolant-leak-recall.shtml

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2012 - Ford recalls brand-new Escape SUVs to fix coolant leaks
It's the third recall in less than two months for the new Escape, which had been completely redesigned.
Posted Sep 05, 2012
https://www.masslive.com/business-news/2012/09/ford_recalls_brand-new_escape_suvs_to_fi.html

2012 - Ford Recalls 2013 Escape for Potential Engine Coolant Leak
By Rachel Smith
September 06, 2012
https://cars.usnews.com/cars-trucks...2013-escape-for-potential-engine-coolant-leak

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2001 - F150 5.4L coolant leak
cause: bad design & plastic drain valve
https://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/6513-f150-5-4l-coolant-leak.html
.....
#5
06-30-2002, 02:36 AM
da_vinci_1
>Hey,,just noticed you are having the same problem as i am.
>Did you find a fix ?

Yes I did fix this problem. I searched hi and low and found that the problem is that on the 5.4 engines (at least mine) has a some sort of plastic drain valve (it's round and plastic right above the 2nd/3rd coil pack). Well, the engineers at ford were just not smart enough to figure out that plastic will expand and shrink more than metal, especially in an engine bay and especially where liquid is flowing right above the coilpaks. Well the problem is that the "drain valve" was leaking coolant only when the engine was shut off (this is when the plastic cap on it would shrink causing coolant to be leaked out onto the coilpak #3 and fill that up, then run down to #4 and fill that up, then finally overfills and leaks down the firewall area and onto the tranny, the engine is slanted a bit towards the back so liquid will flow towards the back.

That through time (although it won't take much of it) will cause the plugs to be rusted and ruin the coilpaks. I went to the ford dealer and told them about this problem and they did not even care nor think this problem existed. I know that with this defect on the truck, I can't be the only person that's had this problem. I even asked them to lookup recalls and there was none on anything like this. Really, I can't see how ford not do a recall on this problem.

The fix is to remove the coilpaks, and replace the plugs. My #3 and #4 plug were soooooo rusted that I hardly got it out since the heads of them were rusted till they're round! But with the right tools and lots of elbow grease, I got them out and replaced the plugs and reset the ECU and no more check engine lights and smooth idle.

--------------------------------------

 

[CyberMoose]

Sandy Munro Shows Tesla's SHOCKING Lead Over Ford
Jun 27, 2021
Solving The Money Problem

I'm not a fan of ford, but this video doesn't give them any credit at all. It's looking at one area, yes it's a big area, but only one area of the mach-e and doing a comparison to show the 'shocking lead' that Tesla has.

If someone watches the other parts of the Mach-e videos with Sandy, they'll see some really impressive engineering that Ford has done, as well as a few things they've done that Sandy says was smarter than what Tesla did.

I still think Tesla does indeed have a good lead over ford and others when it comes to EV production, but it's not like it's so much that Ford and the rest won't be catching up in the next few years.

I would call what Ford did with the Mach-E a mistake, I don't expect to see them do this again, especially not with the Lightning since the F150 is their best selling vehicle and one of the best in North America. Sandy has worked with Ford before and there is no way they won't see what sandy found and make adjustments for their future EV's.

 

[Crissa]

I wouldn't expect the construction of the Lightning to be vastly different than the Mach-E.

Tesla has a big lead - but that doesn't mean Ford can't find some new tricks to turn.

-Crissa

 

[firsttruck]

I'm not a fan of Ford, but this video doesn't give them any credit at all. It's looking at one area, yes it's a big area, but only one area of the mach-e and doing a comparison to show the 'shocking lead' that Tesla has.


If someone watches the other parts of the Mach-e videos with Sandy, they'll see some really impressive engineering that Ford has done, as well as a few things they've done that Sandy says was smarter than what Tesla did.

---------------------------------------


Ford and GM have had over 20 years.


Ford specifically had

1998 - 2002 Ford Ranger EV pickup

2011 - 2017 Ford Focus Electric

.... I don't expect to see them do this again, especially not with the Lightning since the F150 is their best selling vehicle and one of the best in North America.

Mustang is one of Ford's premier names and they sacrificed the "Mustang" name for a 4-dr SUV.

I would call what Ford did with the Mach-E a mistake, ....

It is not just one thing with Mustang Mach-e and this cooling system is going to be a long-term maintenance nightmare.

Ford, auto financial analyst, media tout all the experience Ford has.

This is not a minor mistake.

Sandy has worked with Ford before and there is no way they won't see what Sandy found and make adjustments for their future EV's.

Sandy told Ford about this type of thing over 30 years ago!!!!!

Looks like Ford put lipstick (Mustang name) on a pig.

No excuse for the cooling system design except continued management incompetence at Ford.


Other major issues are


1. Needs 10-20% more battery power to get equivalent range. Ford losses money. Higher cost replacement.

2. Poor charging network. Mach-e is not one of the cheap EVs (Nissan Leaf, Chevy Bolt, Renault Zoe, Hyundai Ioniq Electric, Kia Niro EV). Mach-e buyers pay $45K-70K but can not easily do long trips.

3. No heat pump. Nissan Leaf has had for over 7 years. Supplier, Bosch had avail in 2015. 2017 Tesla Model 3 SuperBottle. 2020 Model Y heat pump Octovalve.

The innovations at Ford are Mustang Mach-e frunk with drain hole and F-150 Lightning power wasting but spacious MegaFrunk.

Tesla has
Mega-castings
Structural battery
Tab-less battery
Dry battery electrode
Octo-valve
Cybertruck Exoskeleton
Carbon sleeved motor

I still think Tesla does indeed have a good lead over Ford and others when it comes to EV production, but it's not like it's so much that Ford and the rest won't be catching up in the next few years.

Yup, Ford is really going to catch up to Tesla any decade now.


-------------------------------

more info

2015 - Bosch: Our new EV heat pump system can increase range by up to 25%
Posted September 16, 2015
by Charles Morris
https://chargedevs.com/newswire/bosch-our-new-ev-heat-pump-system-can-increase-range-by-up-to-25/

------

2017 - Boosting Thermal Management & Reliability of Vehicle Power Electronics
National Renewable Energy Laboratory - NREL


------

2018 - The Tesla Model 3 'Superbottle' Easter Egg Is a Fascinating Packaging Solution
By David Tracy
https://jalopnik.com/the-tesla-model-3s-superbottle-easter-egg-is-a-fascin-1830992728

------

2020 March - Model Y Heat-pump & Octo-valve.


-------------------------------

If someone watches the other parts of the Mach-e videos with Sandy, they'll see some really impressive engineering that Ford has done, as well as a few things they've done that Sandy says was smarter than what Tesla did.

Sandy commented that he found a few suspension metal pieces different from Ford's usual design style. Other item was outside door handle & button of Mach-e.

I do not believe Sandy has found anything in the specific EV tech of Mustang Mach-e that was better than Tesla.

-------------------------------

Sandy Munro Rethinks Tesla's 5-8 year Lead. *** So far, NO
May 27, 2021
E for Electric


-------------------------------

 

[HaulingAss]

I still think Tesla does indeed have a good lead over ford and others when it comes to EV production, but it's not like it's so much that Ford and the rest won't be catching up in the next few years.

Oh, really?

Please explain how a company like Tesla, one that already has an obvious lead and whose innovation is both much quicker and more broad in terms of areas of innovation can be caught by a company that innovates more slowly and is already behind? Do you even know how Ford and GM got behind Tesla? It's not for lack of spending money on EV development, both have spent more than Tesla, it's because they innovate more slowly. Both companies have been "sick" for decades. The culture and spirit of innovation is almost non-existent and this is mostly true of all big legacy manufacturers. Mazda is one of the lone standouts but even they do not have enough to out innovate Tesla. Not enough talent, not enough money and not enough time.

Ford and GM "catching up" to Tesla? Bwaaaha-ha-ha! It's not going to happen unless the culture at Tesla inexplicably loses their interest in innovating. In other words, it's not going to happen until well after both Ford and GM are on their knees crying "uncle". For decades the legacy automakers have kept start-ups from competing by using their size and muscle to squash every auto startup that came along. And there have been over 100. They were so good at keeping competition out that they grew fat and lazy. The entire culture is fat and lazy. The bright engineers at Tesla are enjoying showing the "big boys" how you make a car that is desirable and affordable and it's not going to stop being fun until it's obvious they have won. They will not settle for a draw or a tie.

It's complete fantasy that Ford and GM will "catch up" to Tesla. They only wish they could but they are incapable. Watch and see.

 

[Crissa]

Capital. Just being able to leverage more factories to more angles as Tesla hits the limit of physics on the cars, the competition will catch up.

Each advancement is smaller than the last, so the ones who are behind will catch up.

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

Capital. Just being able to leverage more factories to more angles as Tesla hits the limit of physics on the cars, the competition will catch up.

Each advancement is smaller than the last, so the ones who are behind will catch up.

-Crissa

GM and Ford don't have the capital now and they can't generate the capital by making EV's because they can't make them at a profit! Tesla will not be hitting the "limit of physics" for years. The real contest here is not who can make the best EV, it's who can make the most, the best and, most importantly, for the least amount of money. It's not a one-dimensional problem.

The easy part is catching up to Tesla's efficiency and power lead. The hard part is churning out good cars at low cost. Tesla is innovating new ways to bring superior products to consumers for less money. That last bit is what Ford and GM will never be able to catch up on. Consumers comparison shop to get the most value for their money.

Ford and GM will be shrinking dramatically over the next six to ten years (assuming they are able to sustain themselves at all).

 

[Crissa]

Tesla is hitting the limits now. That's why their charging has increased in smaller jumps. That's why their range is increasing in ever smaller amounts.

And they're basically maxing out the acceleration they can get to use as their advertising pull.

They won't be able to pull those kinds of tricks repeatedly, that's all.

-Crissa

 

[Pappy]

Ok… most everyone on here are “Pro Tesla”, stating Ford and GM are behind. I get it. Manufacturing an EV is only one part of the package, sales and service are to follow. In my case…. the nearest Tesla service center is 339 miles away, where there are three Ford dealership within 40 miles. Tesla is way behind both Ford and GM in sales and can’t possibly catch up to Ford or GM (all vehicle sales not just EV’s). It benefits all of us when multiple companies produce a product we all want, so, why not choose the; “Im OK you’re OK” philosophy and enjoy what each of us like. Trying to convince others that “You’re right and Im wrong”, does absolutely no good to society nor the EV market. I hope all manufacturers find a way to manufacture EVs to satisfy the population in a specific area of the world. That’s got to help the main reason we all want EV’s to begin with (the reduction of greenhouse gases). With competition comes affordability to folks like myself, shoot I remember what I paid for my first computer that didn’t even have a hard drive. I hope the EV market does the same.?

 

[CyberMoose]

Ok… most everyone on here are “Pro Tesla”, stating Ford and GM are behind. I get it. Manufacturing an EV is only one part of the package, sales and service are to follow. In my case…. the nearest Tesla service center is 339 miles away, where there are three Ford dealership within 40 miles. Tesla is way behind both Ford and GM in sales and can’t possibly catch up to Ford or GM (all vehicle sales not just EV’s). It benefits all of us when multiple companies produce a product we all want, so, why not choose the; “Im OK you’re OK” philosophy and enjoy what each of us like. Trying to convince others that “You’re right and Im wrong”, does absolutely no good to society nor the EV market. I hope all manufacturers find a way to manufacture EVs to satisfy the population in a specific area of the world. That’s got to help the main reason we all want EV’s to begin with (the reduction of greenhouse gases). With competition comes affordability to folks like myself, shoot I remember what I paid for my first computer that didn’t even have a hard drive. I hope the EV market does the same.?

I think it's okay for the topic of this conversation to just look at the actual quality of the product without looking at other types of products or size of the companies. Despite any lead that Tesla might have, clearly they won't match the sales big companies for quite some time, whether or not they have a better product.

But I do agree that we want more EV's and some people just assume that other companies will die out because they are behind Tesla. The fact is though, lots of people are behind Tesla and if a product is rushed, I won't come close to being as good as a Tesla. However we can also look back to just a few years ago with how many problems Tesla was having with the Model 3 and Model Y. Tels actually almost went bankrupt, but they made it through, evaluated what they were doing, and their future vehicles are supposed to nearly completely eliminate those issues they had before. I'm hoping that Ford can do the same thing with the Mach-E so they can make better cars in the future.

 

[HaulingAss]

Tesla is hitting the limits now. That's why their charging has increased in smaller jumps. That's why their range is increasing in ever smaller amounts.

And they're basically maxing out the acceleration they can get to use as their advertising pull.

They won't be able to pull those kinds of tricks repeatedly, that's all.

-Crissa

The point I was making, ineffectually apparently, is that Tesla's lead is not limited to the product specs and their lead in product specs isn't their most important lead.

They have a lead in manufacturing EV's at a lower cost and that lead is growing, not shrinking. Ford loses money on every EV they sell, Tesla makes an envious profit. This implies Tesla has a lot of pricing leeway, Ford has none. Tesla is generating money to spend on future production growth, Ford will find that difficult or impossible. At some point outside investment will be neccessary.

Tesla is growing production at an astounding 50% +/year and plans to continue this growth rate for the next several years. Ford has been shrinking production. Innovation in production is even more important than innovation in the product. Because people can only afford to spend so much on transportation. Ford is effectively priced out of the biggest part of the market with no clear path to achieve volume EV sales. It's not sustainable to sell EV's at high volume at a loss.

 

[HaulingAss]

Tels actually almost went bankrupt, but they made it through, evaluated what they were doing, and their future vehicles are supposed to nearly completely eliminate those issues they had before. I'm hoping that Ford can do the same thing with the Mach-E so they can make better cars in the future.

I hope Ford can not only survive, but thrive. We need more sustainable transportation products and fewer ICE. However, hope is not what leads to survival, execution does. What I wish for has little bearing on whether Ford has what it takes to survive.

And my objective assessment is that it's not looking good. Ford has had an easy go of it for decades considering the forces they are up against now. Time will tell how this plays out but don't be surprised if it's not how you and I hope it will turn out.

 

[firsttruck]

Manufacturing an EV is only one part of the package, sales and service are to follow. In my case…. the nearest Tesla service center is 339 miles away, where there are three Ford dealership within 40 miles. Tesla is way behind both Ford and GM in sales and can’t possibly catch up to Ford or GM (all vehicle sales not just EV’s).

There used be multiple blacksmiths & horse stables in every medium-sized town

Every neighborhood used to have at least one TV/radio repair shop. Sears had free to use tube tester and stocked most common types. Today you be lucky to find a TV repair place for your 65" 4K LCD in the entire city.

IBM was the biggest computer company in the world. Even as recently as 1970s when people talked about computers most thought IBM. Today and last 20 years a computer is a Microsoft PC and most people have no idea what I.B.M. means. Back in the day if the computer had even a small problem a highly trained technician would arrive with multiple replacement parts. Today for small problem it is cheaper & faster to send a new one by Amazon prime or Fedex.

Nokia, Blackberry, Motorola used to be primary suppliers of cellphones. Today, hardly anybody has smartphone from those brands & most people would not know what those brands are supposed to be.

How many neighborhood hardware stores are there today compared to 30 years ago?

This has nothing to do with emotions. It is economics & physics.

Car dealers make most of their profit doing service work. Electric motors always needed much much less maintenance than ICE. NiMH & Lithium batteries are also maintenance free too. So with properly designed EVs there is much less service profits for dealers. The initial price to buy EVs will also be less than ICE. ICE prices will continue to increase as cost of emissions & pollution controls increase due to tighter restrictions. Again less profit for dealers.

One or two of your current local dealers is highly likely not to survive in 10 years. Chance that all three close.

Does not matter how much you or I want close local service dealers. If the new situation results in a lot less profit a lot of dealers will close. Same with gas stations.