Why I'm Getting The F150 Lightning

[HaulingAss]

Well, I just draw the line after pencils and low value items. I can trust myself not to slide down the slope to stealing the 70" TV on the wall in the breakroom.

I can understand the pencils and pens, even if I don't agree with it, because it's pretty easy to end up with one in your pocket when you go home. But I would bring it back with me the next day. That's just me. Because where do you draw the line? Yes, not TV's, we all agree. How about a roll of toilet paper because you remembered you were out and your not planning on going to the store for two more days?

I suspect Crissa is speaking in general that employers steal from employees, and I agree. Employees are frequently completely screwed over as they hold little power. Although I won't speak for her.

I've worked for a lot of people in my life and I've always made it a point to keep abreast of all the relevant employment laws. Guess what? In all those years I never discovered one employer who wasn't following every single one to a "T" or better. Wages, breaks, UI insurance, S.S., overtime, everything. I'm not saying the article is bogus, I'm saying not all employers steal from their employees. Not even close. For most of them it's a matter of principle. I would not work for an employer who would not correct a problem if it were discovered. Maybe it's more common since I left the workforce, that is possible.

I was taught your time on the clock is your employer's time. You don't answer personal calls, family emergencies excepted, you don't text, e-mail, browse the Internet for pleasure, etc. Yet millions of employees do these things on their employer's time every day. So I know peoples standards have slipped and I imagine it's the younger generations have started drawing a different line in the sand. If that's the case, it would not be limited to only the employees. But not every employer steals from their employees, that is just false.

I would have spoken to the maintenance guy, explained my concern about the bleach, inquired as to the reasoning. Perhaps he's cash strapped because his wife has cancer and he has big bills to pay. If he was a new employee, perhaps I would show him the door. But one with a long history of excellent service to the company, no way. Good people are hard to find and motivations for doing bad things, especially minor bad things, are often complex and varied. How long is it since he's had a pay rise? I'd talk to his supervisor and ask if he has a history of small items going missing. I like compassion more than inflexible rules. Rarely does a rule apply in every situation equally.

I totally agree, all I'm saying is I wouldn't have taken the bleach home as a matter of principle. I think the owner over-reacted but perhaps he didn't know where my friend thought the line was. If he was taking the tail end of the bleach home, what else might he be taking? Small motels don't have strict inventory systems, they work on trust. I guess he figured that trust had been breached.

 

[FutureBoy]

maybe an interior variant and rims and tires variant.

Still annoyed I cannot haggle on the price.

Do you get that haggling on the price does not change the price that the manufacturer gets for the vehicle? It just changes the amount of cash the dealership (or other intermediary service) gets over and above the actual purchase price. Since Tesla doesn't use dealerships, you already get the lowest possible price. Even lower than if you had haggled the dealership down as far as possible.

On the other hand, if you would like to haggle, I'm sure some soul out there would love to take an extra cut of your CT purchase to allow you to haggle with them. Personally, I'm not one to put up with it.

 

[John K]

Do you get that haggling on the price does not change the price that the manufacturer gets for the vehicle? It just changes the amount of cash the dealership (or other intermediary service) gets over and above the actual purchase price. Since Tesla doesn't use dealerships, you already get the lowest possible price. Even lower than if you had haggled the dealership down as far as possible.

On the other hand, if you would like to haggle, I'm sure some soul out there would love to take an extra cut of your CT purchase to allow you to haggle with them. Personally, I'm not one to put up with it.

it is an insult to the seller to pay full price without attempting to haggle.

Will I ask for more charge credits even though I don’t plan to use them? Yes.

A deal most always be win/win.

There are hefty margins in play. The current stated prices are fair to both parties, maybe I can negotiate an empty bottle of tequila or another cyber truck hat since mine was appropriated by my son. (He looks better in it anyway)

They will tell me no, I will talk how the delay in production has caused me stress and damages and they should compensate me on the interest of my reservation. Rounding up, $10,000 ?. Their response, so you don’t want the truck? yes, I’ll be good.

I respect Tesla as a company and have virtually zero issue with their sales business plan.

 

[FutureBoy]

it is an insult to the seller to pay full price without attempting to haggle.

In some cultures and certain personality types, yes. In others, it will be exactly the opposite or just an annoyance.

Will I ask for more charge credits even though I don’t plan to use them? Yes.

You can ask for whatever you want. And you might also get something extra. To the extent that you see that as a win for you, it will be a win. But I would hesitate to call it a loss if all you get is the exact same deal as the rest of us (minus all the extra time and effort you put in).

A deal most always be win/win.

My CT will be considerably more advanced than any competitor trucks. It will have features that are better designed and well-integrated for a superior product. It will also cost far less than any other vehicle with even middling features in comparison. I call that a win for me. Tesla getting my business is a win for them.

There are hefty margins in play. The current stated prices are fair to both parties, maybe I can negotiate an empty bottle of tequila or another cyber truck hat since mine was appropriated by my son. (He looks better in it anyway)

They will tell me no, I will talk how the delay in production has caused me stress and damages and they should compensate me on the interest of my reservation. Rounding up, $10,000 ?. Their response, so you don’t want the truck? yes, I’ll be good.

In the case of Tesla vehicles, I suspect that the truly hefty margins at play are in areas that have very little to do with the initial purchase price. For instance FSD (especially the subscription model). Yes, Tesla makes a profit on each vehicle. From what I have seen though, their margin has so far been less than the traditional automakers. Instead, they engineer a superior vehicle, engineer a more efficient assembly, remove any unnecessary bottlenecks (dealerships come to mind here), and pass the majority of those savings on to the consumer so that they can outmaneuver all the other manufactures. In many ways, they are banking on volume much like a bulk items store. And this matches well with their desire to convert the planet out of ICE and into BEV.

I respect Tesla as a company and have virtually zero issue with their sales business plan.

Having not purchased a Tesla previously, I'm curious how much of the process is actually just happening in email or on a website vs actual in-person interactions. I'm curious how your process will fit into an online sales funnel.

 

[CyberMoose]

it is an insult to the seller to pay full price without attempting to haggle.

A deal most always be win/win.

I disagree with this a lot. A seller won't see it as an insult if you don't try to haggle the price, they will see it as a payday that they have to do minimal work to get.

When negotiating with a dealership, I don't see it as a win/win. There is the fair value of the car, plus the fees that the dealership needs to be successful. A lot of dealerships make more money from servicing the vehicles they sell rather than the profit from a sale, so it's not like the markup needs to be that high. If I can get it for the fair value, that's a win for me, but for a dealership it might not be. Some dealerships are selling the Mach-E for 10k markup. I doubt ford is charging those dealerships any extra to get the vehicles delivered. So they are just pocketing that extra money.

 

[John K]

I disagree with this a lot. A seller won't see it as an insult if you don't try to haggle the price, they will see it as a payday that they have to do minimal work to get.

When negotiating with a dealership, I don't see it as a win/win. There is the fair value of the car, plus the fees that the dealership needs to be successful. A lot of dealerships make more money from servicing the vehicles they sell rather than the profit from a sale, so it's not like the markup needs to be that high. If I can get it for the fair value, that's a win for me, but for a dealership it might not be. Some dealerships are selling the Mach-E for 10k markup. I doubt ford is charging those dealerships any extra to get the vehicles delivered. So they are just pocketing that extra money.

If I get a fair deal, win for me and win for the, as they do not lose money.

fade to flashback…

Many years ago, my wife, girlfriend at the time, needed a replacement car. Fresh out of high school, I was going to help her by giving her a down payment and went with her to shop for cars. She was tired due to going to many location, nothing was right with quality and budget.

Near closing, we found a 4 door used Honda Civic, forget the year. Low mileage for the car, good condition and sound.

Asking price 8,500.
opening bid, 6,000. They wanted to talk payments and I told payments are a derivative of the price so once we agree on the price, the payments are determined plus interest.
Came back with an offer, and a second salesperson, just showing a payment, and put the pressure to accept.
I asked what the purchase price was, I knew with quick mental math the price was still 8,500, and they wanted to focus on monthly payments. Big no no in negotiations.
I told them the deal was just the stated price and we are not interested at that price. (We past closing time and I overheard other salespeople say how slow sales were that day)
This part pissed me off:

They asked if I were purchasing or if she was purchasing the car. (I was not co-signing the loan)
I responded she was.
They physically both turned their chairs towards her and away from me.
I interrupted the, “while she is purchas8ng the car, I am providing the down payment. if I do not approve the deal, I will not provide the down payment and she will not by the car.”
They both turned their chairs back to me.

Angry at them, and they wanted to still talk payments, I went even lower and ended up purchasing for $5,500.

They got us for a horrendous interest rate, I told my wife it is OK as we would get funding elsewhere that week negating this loan.

How bad was the interest, 23% Not kidding. The loan we got that week, 4.something %

That was atypical, I had more leverage than usual since their sales were low, they needed something for their books And showed their hand early on they were desperate. That dealership closed 3 years later, not surprising to me since their practices were heavy handed.

I let my anger get the better of me but not so to make a bad deal.

With Tesla, their set prices are fine and beneficial to us with such a high demand. I will still ask them to sweeten the pot somehow. It is no if I do not ask. I lose nothing by asking. Key point, I always show respect, never demanding or act entitled.

 

[John K]

Some cultures see not haggling as an insult. Other cultures are insulted if you do try to haggle. Know your surroundings.

 

[Crissa]

I've taken lots of free stuff from work, but I always asked first.

I also have low tolerance for BS, so I've been fired (and collected unemployment) more times than my spouse has had jobs. Lots of employers don't like it when you point out their requirements are illegal, but the unemployment office doesn't seem to think that's a cause to cut unemployment payments (tho I had one employer try.)

Anyhow, it's up to the employer to put a limit on how much juice you're sucking down.

The first new car we bought was at 24% interest. But no one else would give us a loan and we needed a car. That car was good for us. Our current Mazda 3 all told cost as much as our Sentra because that loan was 2% instead of 24%. You can buy alot more car when the terms are better!

-Crissa

 

[CyberMoose]

If I get a fair deal, win for me and win for the, as they do not lose money.

fade to flashback…

Many years ago, my wife, girlfriend at the time, needed a replacement car. Fresh out of high school, I was going to help her by giving her a down payment and went with her to shop for cars. She was tired due to going to many location, nothing was right with quality and budget.

Near closing, we found a 4 door used Honda Civic, forget the year. Low mileage for the car, good condition and sound.

Asking price 8,500.
opening bid, 6,000. They wanted to talk payments and I told payments are a derivative of the price so once we agree on the price, the payments are determined plus interest.
Came back with an offer, and a second salesperson, just showing a payment, and put the pressure to accept.
I asked what the purchase price was, I knew with quick mental math the price was still 8,500, and they wanted to focus on monthly payments. Big no no in negotiations.
I told them the deal was just the stated price and we are not interested at that price. (We past closing time and I overheard other salespeople say how slow sales were that day)
This part pissed me off:

They asked if I were purchasing or if she was purchasing the car. (I was not co-signing the loan)
I responded she was.
They physically both turned their chairs towards her and away from me.
I interrupted the, “while she is purchas8ng the car, I am providing the down payment. if I do not approve the deal, I will not provide the down payment and she will not by the car.”
They both turned their chairs back to me.

Angry at them, and they wanted to still talk payments, I went even lower and ended up purchasing for $5,500.

They got us for a horrendous interest rate, I told my wife it is OK as we would get funding elsewhere that week negating this loan.

How bad was the interest, 23% Not kidding. The loan we got that week, 4.something %

That was atypical, I had more leverage than usual since their sales were low, they needed something for their books And showed their hand early on they were desperate. That dealership closed 3 years later, not surprising to me since their practices were heavy handed.

I let my anger get the better of me but not so to make a bad deal.

With Tesla, their set prices are fine and beneficial to us with such a high demand. I will still ask them to sweeten the pot somehow. It is no if I do not ask. I lose nothing by asking. Key point, I always show respect, never demanding or act entitled.

This doesn't seem like a win-win at all. It's very common for a dealership to have deals with the companies that offer financing and maybe this company was willing to go lower to support that deal. So in this case it was a lose for them and a win for you. I don't like that as much as I don't like a win for the dealership and a lose for you.

When we use a system of the cost changing on how well you can negotiate, that's not a fair system. Sure if someone is good at negotiating, they might get a better deal than anyone else, but it's that anyone else that ends up paying for it due to this system.

I remember my mom buying a car when I was growing up, single mother, the only car she ever had was from when she was married until it finally broke down. She bought some crappy car, I can't even remember what is was. I do remember our neighbors telling her how bad of a deal she got, I remember the maintenance fees costing us the money we had for the heat and ended up having to use kerosene heaters for about two months in a Canadian winter, I remember that same car being sold to a junkyard because the next problem would have costed more to fix than it was worth.

The fact that dealerships start at a higher price and expect people to negotiate, doesn't mean that everyone will, some people don't know how to and don't know what a car is worth. I'm not going to blame my mom for her ignorance about haggling or knowing if a car is actually worth buying or not. I'm going to blame the dealership completely.

I have 3 vehicles, my Truck and my Jeep were bought from my neighbor who was upgrading, and my car I ordered online. I did my research and decided what I thought was a fair price, went to a dealership, they tried to negotiate, I walked out. I didn't walk out as part of the negotiation, I walked out, got in my truck and drove away. The second one took my offer.

I'm really glad Tesla sells vehicles the way they do, everyone pays the same price, no one is getting a deal for some insane interest rate, no one is paying more than the last person or the next person, everyone is treated the same.

Some cultures see not haggling as an insult. Other cultures are insulted if you do try to haggle. Know your surroundings.

I would love to know one culture that will try to sell me something and then feel offended when I buy it for the price they try to sell it to me for. I've spent a lot of time in countries where haggling is just how things are done. I spend 7 months in Asia before Covid and the girl I was dating always tried to get me to haggle. The way I see it, and what I told her is, If someone offers me something that I think is a fair price, I will buy it. If someone offers me something that I think is overpriced, I'll walk away.

I've never seen anyone look insulted when I buy something that they try to sell. Sure they might get a little more for it, but I got what I wanted for a price that I felt was fair.

Also even if there is some culture that actually finds it insulting to not haggle, that's not the culture in North America.

 

[John K]

I will share another story.

in the Philippines, office workers under my umbrella wanted to take me to a shopping mall where haggling Is common.

One of the employees stayed with me, I ask so they could show be local techniques and customs.

I picked multiple souvenirs, totaling 10k ($200)starting price. I asked my office employee what percentage we should open with. He said 8k.

I told him, I would handle, put on my ‘charm’ opened with 5k, she acted like I was taking food from her family, she was in her early 20s. Came back with 8k.

I matched her mock disbelief telling her I would be bankrupt. We settled on 5,500 ($110)

There was some flirting, some good natured conversation, mock dismay, she was enjoying.

At the end, she impressed me more and asked me to give her 100php ($2) to get food at the food court. I gave her 500 ($10)

I overdid the flirting, she also gave me her phone number and I felt bad and guilty to my wife as I declined by telling her I am married. Apparently, I flirted too much.

The office employee with me said, you don’t need my help and embellished the story when meeting up with the large group of employees.

All parties left happy, the tip was for the enjoyment and that she asked for a gimme after the deal was done. It was no if she did not ask.

regarding the previous story, my anger was for them treating my now wife poorly and trying to take advantage of her. It was not due to insulting me,

 

[CyberMoose]

I will share another story.

in the Philippines, office workers under my umbrella wanted to take me to a shopping mall where haggling Is common.

One of the employees stayed with me, I ask so they could show be local techniques and customs.

I picked multiple souvenirs, totaling 10k ($200)starting price. I asked my office employee what percentage we should open with. He said 8k.

I told him, I would handle, put on my ‘charm’ opened with 5k, she acted like I was taking food from her family, she was in her early 20s. Came back with 8k.

I matched her mock disbelief telling her I would be bankrupt. We settled on 5,500 ($110)

There was some flirting, some good natured conversation, mock dismay, she was enjoying.

At the end, she impressed me more and asked me to give her 100php ($2) to get food at the food court. I gave her 500 ($10)

I overdid the flirting, she also gave me her phone number and I felt bad and guilty to my wife as I declined by telling her I am married. Apparently, I flirted too much.

The office employee with me said, you don’t need my help and embellished the story when meeting up with the large group of employees.

All parties left happy, the tip was for the enjoyment and that she asked for a gimme after the deal was done. It was no if she did not ask.

regarding the previous story, my anger was for them treating my now wife poorly and trying to take advantage of her. It was not due to insulting me,

I don't see the point of that story at all. I don't mean to offend but this doesn't at all change anything that I have said.

First of all, lets face it, she wouldn't have been insulted if you paid the listed price, she probably would have been a lot happier if you paid the listed price than any amount of talking you two did.

You are also talking about a country that is entirely based on haggling for a price. The listed price is always negotiable in basically any store you go to other than top of the line, high end stores for tourists and the rich. I spend a lot of time in the Philippines because my wife is Filipina. The people there grow up learning how to haggle and to make sure that they don't get screwed.
How many people learn how to haggle for the cost of a car or a house in North America? Is it completely fine that someone might pay thousands extra when they don't know how to haggle as long as some people enjoy it and can get a good price out of it?

When it comes to a used vehicle, I do believe that there is a small margin to negotiate in because the value of one car to another of the same year and model can be quite different. I barely even accept that when I see how often people are mislead during used car sales and they still pay too much for what was described. But when it comes to a brand new vehicle, where car A and car B are the exact same in every way, I hate to see one person paying more just because the other person knew the tricks of the trade.

 

[John K]

The story was shared as an example how it was fun for both parties. The first is an example of a dealerships with loose morals.

I taught my son how to negotiate. I felt it is one of the items I needed to check off teaching.

i am not trying to change your mind, just sharing my perspective on how it is fun for me. I don’t expect anyone to be coerced into my way of thinking.

 

[FutureBoy]

I taught my son how to negotiate. I felt it is one of the items I needed to check off teaching.

So having done that have you thought about teaching others? I could certainly use some tips.

 

[CyberMoose]

I get that haggling can be really fun for some people. I love jumping out of airplanes and swimming with sharks cageless.

It's really nice how those things are optional and no one has something in their life that requires them to do those things.

If I loved to haggle, I'd probably go to pawn shops a lot, maybe start one. go to asian centered neighborhoods, like for me I know that the pacific mall in Toronto or the korean street downtown has a lot of haggling. My girlfriend cooks a lot of meals from her country so we are always looking for specific ingredients and I see her haggle every time.

My only issue is that people who might not have much money but need a car, maybe they have kids and a couple jobs and the bus really takes a long time out of the day if you are trying to follow it's schedule. Those people can't always afford that extra 500-2000 for even a cheap used car, and they might not know anything about haggling or the value of the car they are looking at.

To haggle, knowing how much something is worth is a really big advantage. if someone is just randomly throwing out numbers with no reason behind them, the dealership will probably realize that even if they need to drop the price, they can still leave it with a high markup.

A friend of mine in University was buying a new car in her second or third year. I remember seeing a car in a lot that I probably wouldn't pay more than 600-700CAD for. It was listed at $2500, it was the cheapest one in the lot and she was strongly considering buying it. Luckily my other friend talked her out of it. But some people who know nothing about cars can look for the cheapest vehicle and think it's a good deal for no other reason than it's the cheapest and it still has 4 wheels.

 

[tidmutt]

I can understand the pencils and pens, even if I don't agree with it, because it's pretty easy to end up with one in your pocket when you go home. But I would bring it back with me the next day. That's just me. Because where do you draw the line? Yes, not TV's, we all agree. How about a roll of toilet paper because you remembered you were out and your not planning on going to the store for two more days?



I've worked for a lot of people in my life and I've always made it a point to keep abreast of all the relevant employment laws. Guess what? In all those years I never discovered one employer who wasn't following every single one to a "T" or better. Wages, breaks, UI insurance, S.S., overtime, everything. I'm not saying the article is bogus, I'm saying not all employers steal from their employees. Not even close. For most of them it's a matter of principle. I would not work for an employer who would not correct a problem if it were discovered. Maybe it's more common since I left the workforce, that is possible.

I was taught your time on the clock is your employer's time. You don't answer personal calls, family emergencies excepted, you don't text, e-mail, browse the Internet for pleasure, etc. Yet millions of employees do these things on their employer's time every day. So I know peoples standards have slipped and I imagine it's the younger generations have started drawing a different line in the sand. If that's the case, it would not be limited to only the employees. But not every employer steals from their employees, that is just false.



I totally agree, all I'm saying is I wouldn't have taken the bleach home as a matter of principle. I think the owner over-reacted but perhaps he didn't know where my friend thought the line was. If he was taking the tail end of the bleach home, what else might he be taking? Small motels don't have strict inventory systems, they work on trust. I guess he figured that trust had been breached.

I understand, different strokes for different folks. I've never taken toilet paper, I might be tempted to TP my boss's office on his birthday or something. Which sounds crazy, but even crazier when you realize I work for a huge corporate with 100K employees.

There is no slippery slope here because I have a moral compass and not worrying about taking a pencil doesn't mean I'll suddenly take other stuff. That's just my view, others have different views and that's fine.

Your approach to your on the job time feels archaic to me, but please don't take offense to that. I've worked in software most of my career, so that gives me a different take on things I suspect. I have slept in the office, worked multiple all nighters. I've been put up in hotels across the road from a client so I could run across in my PJs at 3am to check on a migration process. I've turned up in London at a site where the IT manager said he thought about greeting me with a piece of 2x4 and left a month later with them promising to be a reference site. All of that was due to my extreme dedication to solving the problem and giving up a lot of personal time and travelling across the world. So that means I mix work with my personal time so I also get to mix personal time with work time. I like that flexibility and so does my employers. If our site goes down on a Saturday night, they know I'm willing to help. That flexibility means I can pick my kids up earlier some days, help the school out for a few hours and so on.

If my boss said "bums in seat at 9am, no personal calls" etc. I wouldn't even start the job, unless I had no choice. Then I'd suck it up.