Why I'm Getting The F150 Lightning

[HaulingAss]

I agree. Ultimately my final decision will be in the YT reviews and final specs for both. Tesla really has to come out w/ their V2H. I can charge at work for free and essentially cut my electric bill in half w/ Lightning.

Have you thought this through fully?

Free workplace charging is a perk many employers offer their employees to help encourage cleaner commuting and cut commuting expenses. Without specific approval from your company, charging at work and unloading it at home every night to cut your electric bill in half is employee theft of electricity.

It's also terribly inefficient because you will lose at least 10% of the electricity at work due to charging inefficiency and at least 15% due to inverter and wiring inefficiencies when you unload the power at home. So that's over 25% of your bosses electricity that will just vanish in the form of wasted heat. I know as an employer that I would not be happy with that even without the unavoidable wastage.

Employee theft is one of the worst things an employee can do so don't do this without explicit permission to do so.

 

[ReddykwRun]

I’d look at the Mach E teardown videos from Sandy Munro. Ford’s shitty, lazy engineering these past few decades is continuing with their electric products. Same as the other domestic OEMs.

Ditto, the Mach E has 31 hose clamps (possible leak points) under the assembly they call the frunk. Scary

 

[Crissa]

Employee theft is one of the worst things an employee can do so don't do this without explicit permission to do so.

It is theft, but...
The amount to be stolen would be pretty limited. Employers steal more than a magnitude more than all other theft in the US each year.

How much could you 'steal' from a standard level 2 charger, anyhow?

-Crissa

 

[John K]

It is theft, but...
The amount to be stolen would be pretty limited. Employers steal more than a magnitude more than all other theft in the US each year.

How much could you 'steal' from a standard level 2 charger, anyhow?

-Crissa

just ask, majority will allow charging unless building is maxed on usage.

Reality, charging it at work, without dedicated spots, is annoying.

 

[CyberMoose]

just ask, majority will allow charging unless building is maxed on usage.

Reality, charging it at work, without dedicated spots, is annoying.

My workplace had like 10 charging spots when I started working there. Now It's nearly 25-30%. The more people who switch to electric, the more they add. I've only ever seen them all full a couple times and maintenance actually grabbed an extension cord for someone to use their mobile charger.. I expect that in the next 5 years or so, my work place will probably have level 2 chargers on all spots.

Might not be realistic for all businesses of course. But in 15-20 years, workplace charging will probably be a lot more common. Even just a post with an outlet on parking spots would be nice to get a small charge while working.

 

[firsttruck]

just ask, majority will allow charging unless building is maxed on usage.

Reality, charging it at work, without dedicated spots, is annoying.

Agree many businesses might allow workers to charge EV to cover the commute electrical usage (generally up to 60 miles round trip).

Completely draining EV battery by powering the workers house all week and recharging at work is considerable more power & if it was my business would not be appreciated and I would consider abuse. Besides ellectrical usage there is also isssue of extra hours at charger that need to be used by other workers.

For work charging to be practical during day I think businesses will need rooftop solar installation. We should encourage all businesses that have roofs suitable for solar panels to install them. This is one important way to reduce expensive grid peaks.

 

[tidmutt]

How much is the equipment needed to connect an EV to a house likely to cost?

 

[Crissa]

How much is the equipment needed to connect an EV to a house likely to cost?

Depends on how automatic the switchover is, how much of the house it's covering... But from a few hundred dollars (on top of the special EVSE) to several thousand.

-Crissa

 

[HaulingAss]

It is theft, but...
The amount to be stolen would be pretty limited. Employers steal more than a magnitude more than all other theft in the US each year.

How much could you 'steal' from a standard level 2 charger, anyhow?

-Crissa

There is no "standard" amount of power provided by level 2 EVSE but 50 amp service is pretty common at workplace chargers. A Cybertruck will be able to charge at 48 amps at a minimum, the Tri-motor probably more. Let's be conservative and say the workplace level two charger is able to deliver 40 amps to the Cybertruck. That's 86.4 kWh in 9 hours which is a reasonable amount of time for someone to be parked at work each day (assuming they don't use their car to take a lunch).

There are 262 workdays in a year let's shorten that by 4 weeks for vacations, sickness, etc. So, 242 days x 86.4 kWh = 20,909 kWh at a national average of about $0.12/kWh = $2,509/year.

Granted, that's for someone who is dedicated to draining their Cybertruck every night so it's only 1/4 charged when it gets to work each morning and they charge all day long, every day they are at work. Even if we assume someone draws only 1/5 that amount, that is still theft of over $500 every year, from your employer.

I was raised by my parents (who were both school teachers) that it's not proper to take ANYTHING from your employer - not even a pen or a pencil, that is stealing. About 6 years ago, an elderly friend of mine had a job as the maintanance guy at a small motel. He worked about 25 hours a week keeping everything in top shape. One day the owner saw him put a nearly empty bottle of bleach in his truck as he was leaving work. He was fired the next day even though the bottle only had about 4 ounces of bleach left in it. Market value - less than $0.10.

While not all employers would maintain such strict adherence to principles, stealing is stealing. It's dishonest. Hence my recommendation to not do it unless you have implicit permission to do so. The fact that you can't "see" the electricity doesn't matter. The possibility that your employer might "steal" to a greater degree does not matter (that is your employer's problem). The fact that it might be only a few dollars worth a day doesn't matter.

Without permission, it's stealing.

 

[tidmutt]

There is no "standard" amount of power provided by level 2 EVSE but 50 amp service is pretty common at workplace chargers. A Cybertruck will be able to charge at 48 amps at a minimum, the Tri-motor probably more. Let's be conservative and say the workplace level two charger is able to deliver 40 amps to the Cybertruck. That's 86.4 kWh in 9 hours which is a reasonable amount of time for someone to be parked at work each day (assuming they don't use their car to take a lunch).

There are 262 workdays in a year let's shorten that by 4 weeks for vacations, sickness, etc. So, 242 days x 86.4 kWh = 20,909 kWh at a national average of about $0.12/kWh = $2,509/year.

Granted, that's for someone who is dedicated to draining their Cybertruck every night so it's only 1/4 charged when it gets to work each morning and they charge all day long, every day they are at work. Even if we assume someone draws only 1/5 that amount, that is still theft of over $500 every year, from your employer.

I was raised by my parents (who were both school teachers) that it's not proper to take ANYTHING from your employer - not even a pen or a pencil, that is stealing. About 6 years ago, an elderly friend of mine had a job as the maintanance guy at a small motel. He worked about 25 hours a week keeping everything in top shape. One day the owner saw him put a nearly empty bottle of bleach in his truck as he was leaving work. He was fired the next day even though the bottle only had about 4 ounces of bleach left in it. Market value - less than $0.10.

While not all employers would maintain such strict adherence to principles, stealing is stealing. It's dishonest. Hence my recommendation to not do it unless you have implicit permission to do so. The fact that you can't "see" the electricity doesn't matter. The possibility that your employer might "steal" to a greater degree does not matter (that is your employer's problem). The fact that it might be only a few dollars worth a day doesn't matter.

Without permission, it's stealing.

You'd be bonkers to do this anyway. That's about 200 complete battery cycles a year, probably more.

I think firing the guy for taking the empty bleach bottle is insane, I would expect him to explain it was empty and he was cleaning up and it was convenient for him to take it home and throw it away there or something and retain his job. I will also happily take pencils, paper and things like that, as I also often use my personal laptop for work, including use it for meetings in the office etc. I also am available significant periods of time outside of work hours. I even once purchased RAM for my work PC because my company had a brain dead IT department. I also supplied my own larger monitors and better keyboard. I didn't have to do those things, but my ethical subroutines inform me that for all of that I can steal a pencil or two.

I would not however, steal electricity. If I did it occasionally mostly by happy accident, sure. Or I did it before a hurricane I would also consider that just fine. My company already provides palates of bottled water when a hurricane is approach, and allows employees to shelter with their families in their building if they wish.

Point is, there is a happy medium between stealing power every day and stealing a few pencils, I can differentiate. All of us has our own perspectives on this. I can tell you no one from my boss up to the CEO would care less if I took a pencil, or some paper etc. they know it's insignificant and I'm a valued employee that generates many times the values of my salary and a thousand pencils.

 

[Crissa]

Your numbers don't include the amount of energy used in commuting, which would be a large portion. And that's a 12kW source... Which is far larger than the average 6kW level 2 station. Let alone the more common 3kW that you see at places or work that aren't expecting to charge work equipment.

And an employer that fires someone for stealing a pencil or an empty bottle of bleach... Yeah, that employer should lose their business: It's a red flag they steal from their employees.

Employers steal more from employees than all other reported theft combined. https://www.tcworkerscenter.org/2018/09/wage-theft-vs-other-forms-of-theft-in-the-u-s/

-Crissa

 

[CyberMoose]

The only way that someone could realistically be seen as stealing from the workplace is if they are actually doing what was in the example, which was powering their house and recharging at work.

When I get the Cybertruck, whether i'm just driving to work, or I went on a trip yesterday and used up most my battery, or the power is actually out at my house and I was using my truck battery.

I'm not going to turn off the power at my house specifically to save money because of work, but I would always plug in at work regardless of why my battery is low.

I think this just depends on whether or not you are actually going out of your way to drain your battery.

If your workplace has a problem with it, they could look into some way of limiting the charger to only give a certain amount per vehicle per day. I'm sure that'll eventually come out if there isn't a way to do that already.

 

[HaulingAss]

Your numbers don't include the amount of energy used in commuting, which would be a large portion. And that's a 12kW source... Which is far larger than the average 6kW level 2 station. Let alone the more common 3kW that you see at places or work that aren't expecting to charge work equipment.

And an employer that fires someone for stealing a pencil or an empty bottle of bleach... Yeah, that employer should lose their business: It's a red flag they steal from their employees.

Employers steal more from employees than all other reported theft combined. https://www.tcworkerscenter.org/2018/09/wage-theft-vs-other-forms-of-theft-in-the-u-s/

-Crissa

Correct. It doesn't include the power used for commuting. If there was a way to back that out it would reduce the amount stolen, not mean that it wasn't theft.

My personal rule has been to not take anything simply because that's the easiest line in the sand to draw. Once exceptions are made, there is no longer a line. It becomes a slippery slope. And that's why my friend was fired.

Yes, we both thought it was extreme but I disagree that following strict principles implies that employer is stealing from you. To me, it indicates the opposite, that they follow strict principles. I definitely don't see where you are coming from on that particular point because the the point was not the value of the bleach, it was the fact that he was taking it home to perform a task so he wouldn't have to buy his own bleach. That is the principle my friend violated, his firing does not imply his employer was therefore stealing from him!

 

[firsttruck]

$7k option includes extended range Battery and the 80amp wall box, plus the cost of professional installation of the wall box..

Course this is all preliminary prices I found on the innerweb,, who truly know what the cost will be when the truck hits the market.

Where does it say it includes "cost of professional installation of the wall box"?

Please supply link address.

No…it doesn’t, just suggesting to have the wall box professionally installed.

The problem is that most people who see Ford F-150 Lightning adverts will think that 80amp wall box is included with $39,974 price, they will have fast 80amp charging, they will have V2H, and installation will be easy & cheap.


Mounting the 80amp Charge Station Pro box is easy but the electrical line to support an additional 80 amps of usage is not common in most homes. Most homes have a service total of 100A-200A and will not have capacity for another 80 amps.

The electrical service to the building probably will need to be increased/upgraded (expensive).


Automatic grid cutoff & transfer switch


Meter might need updating. This might force owner to more expensive rate plan.


Permit for work & inspection by city (permit fee + delay + contractor time)


Most people will need all of the above & the expense will be 2-5 thousand dollars out of pocket (not included in loan for truck).

Super fast recharge times in adverts is only possible if owner can get 80 amp electrical line otherwise it is much slower 30A/40A charge speed.

Many will not be able to install because grid provider has no capacity or cost to increase capacity for area is not economical so grid provider will refuse to increase/upgrade service.

 

[tidmutt]

Correct. It doesn't include the power used for commuting. If there was a way to back that out it would reduce the amount stolen, not mean that it wasn't theft.

My personal rule has been to not take anything simply because that's the easiest line in the sand to draw. Once exceptions are made, there is no longer a line. It becomes a slippery slope. And that's why my friend was fired.

Yes, we both thought it was extreme but I disagree that following strict principles implies that employer is stealing from you. To me, it indicates the opposite, that they follow strict principles. I definitely don't see where you are coming from on that particular point because the the point was not the value of the bleach, it was the fact that he was taking it home to perform a task so he wouldn't have to buy his own bleach. That is the principle my friend violated, his firing does not imply his employer was therefore stealing from him!

Well, I just draw the line after pencils and low value items. I can trust myself not to slide down the slope to stealing the 70" TV on the wall in the breakroom.

I suspect Crissa is speaking in general that employers steal from employees, and I agree. Employees are frequently completely screwed over as they hold little power. Although I won't speak for her.

I would have spoken to the maintenance guy, explained my concern about the bleach, inquired as to the reasoning. Perhaps he's cash strapped because his wife has cancer and he has big bills to pay. If he was a new employee, perhaps I would show him the door. But one with a long history of excellent service to the company, no way. Good people are hard to find and motivations for doing bad things, especially minor bad things, are often complex and varied. How long is it since he's had a pay rise? I'd talk to his supervisor and ask if he has a history of small items going missing. I like compassion more than inflexible rules. Rarely does a rule apply in every situation equally.