Coagulation

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Seems like a lot of panic for no reason. FS owners - check your order agreement in the app. It says “full self driving capability - included”

Nothing around supervised only or anything like that.
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HaulingAss

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Seems like a lot of panic for no reason. FS owners - check your order agreement in the app. It says “full self driving capability - included”

Nothing around supervised only or anything like that.
That is true for buyers before FSD was rebranded to "FSD Supervised". I'm in this group. The situation is more murky for buyers after Tesla branded it "FSD Supervised". Legally, Tesla could charge more to upgrade to FSD Unsupervised or they could grandfather them in (which they very well might do if it doesn't require any hardware upgrades to drive unsupervised).
 

HaulingAss

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existing Teslas are NoT capable of UFSD, as they need self cleaning devices for all cameras in order for you to take a nap while it is safely hauling your a$$ thru blizzard snowstorms to your in-laws for mac’n’cheese dinner.
Cybercab will be the first iteration capable of Unsupervised.
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It seems you have a misunderstanding of what "FSD Unsupervised" actually means. It doesn't mean it can drive under any conceivable weather/road conditions, not even humans do that, it means it will be capable of driving without human supervision as long as FSD finds the conditions safe enough. Even humans pull over when conditions deteriorate enough to make safe travel impossible. At least the ones wise enough to recognize such situations.
 
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This isn’t my experience at all. It’s not that much different. Biggest difference, it’s not as smooth. Parking.


"Works"

Sure as a supervised ADAS, but it's not anywhere near Unsupervised. It's basically a better version of FSD V12 (why it kept the V12 name, even though 12.6.4 is considered V13-lite). HW3 is over a year behind HW4.
 


CTOWannabe

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That's irrelevant top what they are saying.

That is not UFSD. It's geofenced robotaxi which currently has a 1:1 remote operator monitor and a chase vehicle.
it’s not geofenced because of capability but regulations. I defer to you on the remote operator stuff. If someone is just watching and has “hands on wheel” remotely, im Agree with you. If however they have some remote service like onstar that they call when things go wrong, and they help out then I disagree. That’s not supervision, that’s just after the fact tech support. I have no idea what kind of remote monitoring they are doing, so you may well be right it’s 1 to 1 live supervision.
 

Cybertruck2024

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It seems you have a misunderstanding of what "FSD Unsupervised" actually means. It doesn't mean it can drive under any conceivable weather/road conditions, not even humans do that, it means it will be capable of driving without human supervision as long as FSD finds the conditions safe enough. Even humans pull over when conditions deteriorate enough to make safe travel impossible. At least the ones wise enough to recognize such situations.
Exactly! FSD is more like Super Cruise than a real automated self driving system. Anyone who lives in a place with lots of snow knows this. Tesla being a "California Car" is very much the truth.
 

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I believe the FSD "Supervised" wording was added years ago after major accidents and lawsuits, where drivers were sleeping or not paying attention. They added the term "Supervised" for legal reasons, that you must be supervising the drive, not go to sleep.

Currently, "unsupervised" is still work-in-progress. When it is fully ready, FSD will just be FSD and no point of separation. Like now we are seeing there is no point of "Enhanced" Autopilot with current state of FSD supervised. Regular Autopilot these days is just smart cruise control, which pretty much all auto brands can do now, so remains as basic feature.
 

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I think Tesla is going to break FSD into two tiers with tier pricing for supervised and unsupervised.

Anyone with a "FSD" purchase will get vin locked lifetime supervised. Unsupervised will be monthly subscription only at a much higher monthly price (discounted for FSD purchasers).
 

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I think Tesla is going to break FSD into two tiers with tier pricing for supervised versus unsupervised.
If that's the case I'd keep supervised. It's 98% there as it is, maybe 99% by the time unsupervised arrives. Unless it's a cheap upgrade I wouldn't see the need to go unsupervised when the difference is so small. Unless they strip away features from supervised.

In that scenario some would upgrade depending on needs, but I don't drive all day long and feel the need to sleep. If they have a month subscription it would be worthwhile though for long road trips.

That's the thought process in my head that leads me to believe there won't be 2 tiers because their convergence is so close now. They would've had to freeze supervised a while ago at a lower price and start adding more features to an advanced/future unsupervised version at a higher price.
 


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Lets not forget that market dictates what Tesla will do. If sales are down or not at the level they expect they will pivot (this could be good or bad for the consumer) The system in its current state still is not Unsupervised ready. They can pretend to no longer offer full purchase but if they need to drive sales for a quarter they will do whatever they think that have to do.
 

PungoteagueDave

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Let me assure you I have crapped out and forgotten more than you’ll learn about this topic in the next several lifetimes. And you’re wrong. You own a license to do more than listen to it.

When you buy a CD you own it. It’s yours. It doesn’t mean you own the underlying copyright and can now claim to be the author of the song, or make derivatives, but it does mean no one gets to change the deal on your physical work and per the ‘first sale doctrine’ you basically get to treat that copy as your own and the copyright owners can’t mess with you.

I don’t know why you moved goal posts of entitlement of software updates. The point is if Tesla wants to take away features like they just did with autosteer and you bought a copy of FSD, whatever is your last version, they cannot touch Your FSD if you bought it. You can choose to take free updates or not, or pay for updates if Tesla or Microsoft or whoever choose to sell them. But they cannot diminish or take away your rightly purchased copy. It stays yours. And it stays in at least the state you bought it.

With a subscription if they choose to stop offering you have no recourse, it’s just gone. If they finish features, you have no recourse. If they increase prices, you have no recourse. You’re renting a service. When you buy a perpetual license it stays yours.
What you say here is absolutely true. The one fact left out is that a software license can change the rights of ownership you claim. You could for example, put a time limit after which the feature goes away without a further payment. It could retain a right and obligation of modification that includes potentially reducing or eliminating some features based on the OEM’s judgement or legal requirements. Tesla has had to eliminate features in the past for this reason, and it adds, modifies, and takes away things all the time (see the recent speed choice dust up). I guarantee that their right to access and modify your car is incorporated into the license agreement. Anything legal to do can be legally codified if two parties agree, which we all do when clicking the required boxes without reading the contract.
 

PungoteagueDave

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Lets not forget that market dictates what Tesla will do. If sales are down or not at the level they expect they will pivot (this could be good or bad for the consumer) The system in its current state still is not Unsupervised ready. They can pretend to no longer offer full purchase but if they need to drive sales for a quarter they will do whatever they think that have to do.
True within limits. The decision to eliminate a FSD purchase option seems to run with the CA court case. That implies that Tesla will not have flexibility to turn the lump sum sale feature on or off to stimulate sales.
 

NX-01Cybertruck

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True within limits. The decision to eliminate a FSD purchase option seems to run with the CA court case. That implies that Tesla will not have flexibility to turn the lump sum sale feature on or off to stimulate sales.
California? Never heard of it. :sneaky:
 

CTOWannabe

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What you say here is absolutely true. The one fact left out is that a software license can change the rights of ownership you claim. You could for example, put a time limit after which the feature goes away without a further payment. It could retain a right and obligation of modification that includes potentially reducing or eliminating some features based on the OEM’s judgement or legal requirements. Tesla has had to eliminate features in the past for this reason, and it adds, modifies, and takes away things all the time (see the recent speed choice dust up). I guarantee that their right to access and modify your car is incorporated into the license agreement. Anything legal to do can be legally codified if two parties agree, which we all do when clicking the required boxes without reading the contract.
Youre making up boloney facts and moving goalposts. There is no written agreement when you buy music. For those that do haVE SOME AGREEMENT you assent to, sure, it could make up terms that features are limited in time or can go away without your consent but then they’d have a big ftc problem with it being a “perpetual license” which they would lose. So you’re wrong. Bottom line when you buy the license it’s yours in at least that state basically for the life of at least the device it was licensed to or your life if no specific device is part of the license.

Could they come up with some contract doing what you say, yes, but then they’d couldn’t sell it as a perpetual license or they’d lose the ftc lawsuit on it and would have to label it differently. Also you forget this is at least initially bound by sale of a physical car with expressed features, which makes things much more difficult for Tesla as it’s an advertised feature you buy on physical goods with marketed features not expressing your hypothetical.

If you assent to an upgrade that takes away a feature, that’s YOUR choice, not a dictate of Tesla or anyone else. But you can refuse the update and stick with what you got. Or if the company dies, you get to keep using the software, which would not be a thing if Microsoft killed office 365, you have nothing, but if you have your office 2024, you get to keep using it all you like.
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