CT range be better than F150 Lightning owners' reports

[Rthardison]

I would say beware who is posting. You could take multiple trips and allow the battery to totally cool between trips. You would lose 30% per trip. I.e. start cold in the morning lose 30%, start your trip home 9 hours later and lose another 30%. Etc.

I start the morning plugged in with a warm car.

 

[Rthardison]

If someone is losing 60% on one trip at 40 degrees F, it is a poorly designed product or the reviewer is being misleading.

 

[BillyGee]

Not to mention that, unlike Ford and GM, Tesla is in it to change the world. I wouldn't be surprised if they end up making their range predictions with at least some of the cargo/towing capacity, on level ground. Isn't it true that once the batteries are warmed up there is no longer the kind of loss to the cold?

In my experience with the Model Y, it really depends on just how hot or cold it is. The car actually handles warmer temps pretty well for battery thermals, but it could also just be reduced AC/Heat use. Warming up the battery while at a charger does make a huge difference for range though, I've seen it jump nearly 5% once warmed up, it's why I stopped charging to 90% and only to 85% overnight.

 

[firsttruck]

/

.....
You will find ICE cars cannot hit the EPA numbers (not even close) during multiple short trips in cold weather and if you let the car idle to pre-heat, it gets ugly really fast.
.....

In addition, ICE used for short trips suffer measurable increased engine degradation (shorter life) due to not reaching operating temperature, being below operating temperature during more of the trip.

Increased friction so more wear.
More cycles of warm/hot to cool/cold condenses more moisture out of the air.

Increased water from condensation in motor oil, transmission fluids, steering fluids cause more corrosion, less effectiveness, need more changes (oils/fluids, filters, more service trips).


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Top 10 Car Care Tips Rick KranzByRick Kranz 04/17/2019
https://www.kbb.com/car-news/top-10-car-care-tips/

Engine Oil
.....
Fight sludge: There’s a big downside to short trips, stop-and-go traffic, as well as long trips when there is a heavy load on the engine, for example, pulling a trailer. The enemy: Sludge.

.....
Specific driving conditions can cause sludge. It can come from oil solidifying on a long trip at engine temperatures generally above 210 degrees Fahrenheit. Other culprits are short trips that prevent the engine from reaching its proper operating temperature and water in the oil caused by condensation. “It accumulates everywhere in the engine. Sludge drops to the bottom of the oil pan. But when the engine warms up, the oil mixes with the goo and is pumped through the whole engine,” Moritz said. “Sludge does not burn away.”

.....
Transmission fluid replacement: Having the proper amount of fluid is critical because it cools the transmission, lubricates moving parts and smooths the shifts between gears. However, the fluid deteriorates over time. Frequent stop-and-go driving or pulling a trailer accelerates deterioration. Under those conditions the transmission’s operating temperature rises, putting a strain on the transmission’s components and the fluid.

 

[Cybertruckee]

I've been absent in F150 Lightning forum for awhile.

Now I see a lot of "for sale" posts from the early adopters.

Yes, it's range issue and some taking advantage of moneyed fools who just can't wait.

 

[Crissa]

If someone is losing 60% on one trip at 40 degrees F, it is a poorly designed product or the reviewer is being misleading.

60% of what, tho? The energy to heat the battery and cabin has to come from somewhere. The energy to push through dense, cold air at high speed has to come from somewhere.

This is highly dependent upon driving habits, and if you sit around heating your cabin or driving 70 in cold weather, it can happen.

-Crissa

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

60% of what, tho? The energy to heat the battery and cabin has to come from somewhere. The energy to push through dense, cold air at high speed has to come from somewhere.

This is highly dependent upon driving habits, and if you sit around heating your cabin or driving 70 in cold weather, it can happen.

-Crissa

I don’t see what dense, cold air has to do with the electric motors or the friction. The car is maintaining the battery temperature while the car is cold so if you are on the road and not plugged in you are using battery to achieve this. As soon as you are driving, however, you are creating heat to keep things warm. I saw a video somewhere that explained the losses as being significantly less than 30%. Sorry but I do not recall where/when.

 

[Crissa]

I don’t see what dense, cold air has to do with the electric motors or the friction. The car is ...

...subject to more air resistance in the cold than the warm. All these numbers add up.

And no, driving doesn't produce alot of heat. That's the magic of electric motors, every little waste heat.

-Crissa

 

[rr6013]

That's the magic of electric motors, every little waste heat.

Anybody. Anyone know whether the Octovalve system can uptake and utilize charge cable heat produced in the cord itself during the duration of charging a Cybertruck?

Obviously, Tesla chargers do not.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

...subject to more air resistance in the cold than the warm. All these numbers add up.

And no, driving doesn't produce alot of heat. That's the magic of electric motors, every little waste heat.

-Crissa

I have never heard of cold air producing more resistance than warm air. Moist air over dry air, yes. In fact, I experience that all the time. I wonder what the difference in density is at ground level and to what degree it affects rolling resistance. As an undergraduate I played around with shape studies with lab wind tunnels but that was decades ago. I’ll go look up air density.

Ok, I am wrong (again). According to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_of_air

there is a 17% difference between dry air density at -25 degrees C and 25 degrees C (50 degree C temperature range). That is by using the ideal gas law with pressure being constant. It would be difficult to drive very far with pressure remaining constant and that would complicate a scientific analysis. Also, you would probably have to make sure that the tire pressure was checked between these two extremes (25 and -25) to get a fair reading. I am not sure how quickly a battery pack can be brought to nominal operating temperature but once it reaches that temperature it would probably not cost much to maintain it. So 17%-20% range loss over 50 degrees C on flat ground, dry air, and unchanging weather (pressure and humidity), and anything else gets a lot more complicated to evaluate.

 

[Crissa]

I have never heard of cold air producing more resistance than warm air. Moist air over dry air, yes. In fact, I experience that all the time. I wonder what the difference in density is at ground level and to what degree it affects rolling resistance. As an undergraduate I played around with shape studies with lab wind tunnels but that was decades ago. I’ll go look up air density.

Ok, I am wrong (again). According to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_of_air

there is a 17% difference between dry air density at -25 degrees C and 25 degrees C (50 degree C temperature range). That is by using the ideal gas law with pressure being constant. It would be difficult to drive very far with pressure remaining constant and that would complicate a scientific analysis. Also, you would probably have to make sure that the tire pressure was checked between these two extremes (25 and -25) to get a fair reading. I am not sure how quickly a battery pack can be brought to nominal operating temperature but once it reaches that temperature it would probably not cost much to maintain it. So 17%-20% range loss over 50 degrees C on flat ground, dry air, and unchanging weather (pressure and humidity), and anything else gets a lot more complicated to evaluate.

You know what I have enjoyed about this forum?

You guys - and I mean it - are always willing to look stuff up and I'm always learning stuff.

Anyhow, yeah, those little losses add up. And if the trip is short, as pointed out, all the losses for spooling up the battery and cabin will weigh heavily against the total miles which won't be big.

Think of someone who lives near the freeway. So they don't warm the truck up while plugged in, they don't tell it where they're going because it's a drive they've done daily.... Say they go get coffee and let it sit warming itself while the line at the coffee place is longer, then jump on the freeway against that cold air, then repeat the pattern backwards.

It's just going to have 'bad range' but like that towing video, speeding is just going to be murder on range, and add in the cold weather effects and it'll look bad, but it'll have done each of the parts far more efficiently than an ICE truck.

I see guys roaring past me on the highway in their big shiny trucks and I looks down and I'm 5-10 over and they're going 10-20 over and what must that do to their gas bill? An EV isn't going to solve their wasteful ways.

-Crissa

 

[JBee]

I have never heard of cold air producing more resistance than warm air. Moist air over dry air, yes. In fact, I experience that all the time. I wonder what the difference in density is at ground level and to what degree it affects rolling resistance. As an undergraduate I played around with shape studies with lab wind tunnels but that was decades ago. I’ll go look up air density.

Ok, I am wrong (again). According to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_of_air

there is a 17% difference between dry air density at -25 degrees C and 25 degrees C (50 degree C temperature range). That is by using the ideal gas law with pressure being constant. It would be difficult to drive very far with pressure remaining constant and that would complicate a scientific analysis. Also, you would probably have to make sure that the tire pressure was checked between these two extremes (25 and -25) to get a fair reading. I am not sure how quickly a battery pack can be brought to nominal operating temperature but once it reaches that temperature it would probably not cost much to maintain it. So 17%-20% range loss over 50 degrees C on flat ground, dry air, and unchanging weather (pressure and humidity), and anything else gets a lot more complicated to evaluate.

One caveat with that is lower temperatures also occur more often at higher altitudes and therefore less air pressure, which also offsets the cooler air density. Not all sotuations are equal and all variables need to be considered. Also air humidity and dew point affect heat pump COP, so heating load is also not just temperature dependent.

 

[Bill906]

Moist air over dry air, yes. In fact, I experience that all the time.

Fun fact, humid air is LESS dense than dry air assuming temperature and pressure being held constant.

 

[Jhodgesatmb]

Fun fact, humid air is LESS dense than dry air assuming temperature and pressure being held constant.

I read that but it doesn't match my experience. I find that, when kiteboarding, moist air is much more powerful for the same temperature and windspeed. I have to rig to smaller kites or be overpowered. If these are taken into consideration the only thing left is air density isn't it?

 

[Sirfun]

I read that but it doesn't match my experience. I find that, when kiteboarding, moist air is much more powerful for the same temperature and windspeed. I have to rig to smaller kites or be overpowered. If these are taken into consideration the only thing left is air density isn't it?

I wonder if what you're experiencing has more to do with air temperature than humidity.

I have never heard of cold air producing more resistance than warm air. Moist air over dry air, yes. In fact, I experience that all the time. I wonder what the difference in density is at ground level and to what degree it affects rolling resistance. As an undergraduate I played around with shape studies with lab wind tunnels but that was decades ago. I’ll go look up air density.

Ok, I am wrong (again). According to:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Density_of_air

there is a 17% difference between dry air density at -25 degrees C and 25 degrees C (50 degree C temperature range). That is by using the ideal gas law with pressure being constant. It would be difficult to drive very far with pressure remaining constant and that would complicate a scientific analysis. Also, you would probably have to make sure that the tire pressure was checked between these two extremes (25 and -25) to get a fair reading. I am not sure how quickly a battery pack can be brought to nominal operating temperature but once it reaches that temperature it would probably not cost much to maintain it. So 17%-20% range loss over 50 degrees C on flat ground, dry air, and unchanging weather (pressure and humidity), and anything else gets a lot more complicated to evaluate.

I find this very noticeable when playing golf. When I'm playing in colder temps (60vs75) I have to go up a club to get the same distance on my shots. I never noticed it windsurfing. I guess there are so many variables (difference between gusts and lulls) and I could just look at the water at my local beach and know what sail I needed. I have seen huge differences in what sail I needed based on altitude, but I never thought about temperature being a factor.