Cybertruck with or without 4680 Batteries?

[Crissa]

By the time we get our trucks, there will have been cars with 4680 packs operating for years.

-Crissa

PS, they supposedly had mules on Battery Day, and some Ys have been being shipped with them for how long now?

 

[samroy92]

The Semi is being produced with the 2170's... it is a slow ramp and not seemingly desperate for 4680's.

I think the fact that they chose 2170 for the Semi is bullish for CT getting 4680. They are constrained on the 4680 side even though they are ramping faster. I think they had to choose one or the other: CT or Semi 4680 for 2023.

 

[ED_SFO]

With all the resources dedicated to 4680...by the time they hit full ramp ( in 20 months) of CT's there should be plenty of 4680 cells to go around.

 

[Ogre]

It is sounding like early Cybertrucks will not use 4680 batteries. The author in this article states early production is not dependent on 4680 batteries. I didn’t hear that in the Q3 Earnings Call. I heard Cybertruck is not cell constrained in 2023.

I am not sure I want a Cybertruck without 4680 cells. I think 4680 will charge faster and run cooler than the previous generation of cells.

Does anyone else have information on which cells will be in early Cybertrucks?

https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-cybertruck/amp/

Keep in mind the guys from Teslarati have no more information about this than we do.

I’ve assumed for a long time that the Cybertruck would need the 4680 Cells for the structural battery pack, but less certain of that now.

Likely won’t know for certain until a tear down. I’ll put my $2 on 4680s though.

 

[TyPope]

It strikes me that the difference here between ICE cars and EVs is stark. On an ice car they would charge you a premium for a better engine, or the gas station more for higher octane fuel.
I wonder what the objection is to charging more for better batteries, I don't think I've seen anybody do that.

Is it just the implication that there are 'Worse" batteries, and they are still nervous about public perception of them being dangerous?

Well, electric DOES charge for better motors... single/dual/Tri-motor/quad-motor/Plaid... When taken with larger battery options and it's like having engine choices.

 

[TyPope]

Keep in mind the guys from Teslarati have no more information about this than we do.

I’ve assumed for a long time that the Cybertruck would need the 4680 Cells for the structural battery pack, but less certain of that now.

Likely won’t know for certain until a tear down. I’ll put my $2 on 4680s though.

During the earnings call, Elon said they would use 4680s from Freemont until GT got spun up.

 

[rr6013]

assumed for a long time that the Cybertruck would need the 4680 Cells for the structural battery pack,

Exoskeleton frame was designed and engineered before Tesla 4680 structural batterypack was a real thing. Adding 4680 structural cells into the batterypack:

• unburdened the exoskeleton
• picked up load force below CG
• transferred energy from castings through the pack
• mediated transient force travel into passenger compartment
• directed force to exoskeleton at pack perimeter
• batteries become frame stiffeners rather than dunnage
• enabled batterypack and exo to be integrated structurally

No doubt that structural 4680 batterypack is über cool advantage. But Cybertruck’s exoskeleton is structurally independent. It doesn’t need the batterypack to do its job.

Integrating the two components becomes superstructure to the vehicle:

• making Cybertruck more rigid
• more efficient
• easier to manufacture
• quieter(read less vibration noise)
• less mfg steps cutting cost
• less mfg time reducing production burden

Integration adds complexity that:

• eliminates battery cell replacement
• creates points of criticality where exo + pack connect
• independent componentry is lost to uni-body
• increases cost to repair major damage
• pack top skin/floorpan forces an assembly bottleneck

 

[Ogre]

Exoskeleton frame was designed and engineered before Tesla 4680 structural batterypack was a real thing. Adding 4680 structural cells into the batterypack:

The 4680 was designed from the ground up to be structural for projects exactly like this. They didn’t just come up with the design for the 4680 the night before Battery Day and crank it out. Battery day was the result of 5+ years work. As they were designing the Cybertruck, they knew perfectly well—or at least some of the team knew—that a new platform with a structural battery was being designed in the room next door (figuratively).

The idea that they didn’t know of the 4680 and the timelines around it is ludicrous.

Whether the Cybertruck was designed specifically to be launched with that new battery platform as a requirement or not is a whole other question. Considering the price point of the Cybertruck, it seems extremely clear that they were anticipating a big reduction in the cost of cells from the time it was launched. That makes me think they had the 4680 in mind the whole time.

 

[rr6013]

The 4680 was designed from the ground up to be structural for projects exactly like this. They didn’t just come up with the design for the 4680 the night before Battery Day and crank it out. Battery day was the result of 5+ years work. As they were designing the Cybertruck, they knew perfectly well—or at least some of the team knew—that a new platform with a structural battery was being designed in the room next door (figuratively).

The idea that they didn’t know of the 4680 and the timelines around it is ludicrous.

Whether the Cybertruck was designed specifically to be launched with that new battery platform as a requirement or not is a whole other question. Considering the price point of the Cybertruck, it seems extremely clear that they were anticipating a big reduction in the cost of cells from the time it was launched. That makes me think they had the 4680 in mind the whole time.

That is new information to me.

Western engineering practice customarily designs for separate independence. U.K. are just the opposite leveraging off integration at every opportunity. That integration is not a first principle which is where I took the batterypack OG design at face value i.e. independence.

Its surprising to see the integration at such a fundamental level was engineered, designed and built with integration being the preferred embodiment of the design.

Thank you. That’s informative. Wonder what else in Cybertruck follows the first principle - integration. It would be useful to know where they occur.

 

[Ogre]

That is new information to me.

Western engineering practice customarily designs for separate independence. U.K. are just the opposite leveraging off integration at every opportunity. That integration is not a first principle which is where I took the batterypack OG design at face value i.e. independence.

Its surprising to see the integration at such a fundamental level was engineered, designed and built with integration being the preferred embodiment of the design.

Thank you. That’s informative. Wonder what else in Cybertruck follows the first principle - integration. It would be useful to know where they occur.

Tesla is weird. They are integrated way beyond what any other company is.

Their entire cooling/ heating system works vehicle wide. Cooling off the battery or heating the battery, cooling off the cabin or heating the cabin all work through one heat pump to push heat into or pull heat out of the various parts of the car and push it elsewhere or into the environment.

Also, Musk has a hand in damned near every project of import. Not just aware of it, but actually working hands on with engineers in every corner of the company.

Though you are right about one thing. There is about a 99.9% chance there is a way to make 2170 Cybertrucks. Tesla always likes to cover contingencies.

 

[JBee]

It strikes me that the difference here between ICE cars and EVs is stark. On an ice car they would charge you a premium for a better engine, or the gas station more for higher octane fuel.
I wonder what the objection is to charging more for better batteries, I don't think I've seen anybody do that.

Is it just the implication that there are 'Worse" batteries, and they are still nervous about public perception of them being dangerous?

So I'm pretty sure batteries are graded after production, similar to silicon chip wafers, where the ones that stay the coolest, also are the highest performing, meaning they are also sold for a premium. (Hence the whole CPU/GPU overclocking with better cooling).

There will be a range that is tolerated or discarded, and then of those used they would group them together depending on the charge/discharge profile, and bundle the same ones together in a pack. The better performing ones would go into the performance versions, the others into the standard models. Sometimes the degradation performance of the cells are only ascertained over a longer period of testing in a vehicle, like why it took a while before they released the OTA performance upgrade on the M3 DM.

Currently I believe the GA built My with structural 4680's are verifying 4680 performance long term and on road, to give Tesla the baselines required for CT rollout.

 

[Crissa]

Tesla has specifically avoided making the Cybertruck until they had spare 4680s, tho.

-Crissa

 

[TyPope]

Exoskeleton frame was designed and engineered before Tesla 4680 structural batterypack was a real thing. Adding 4680 structural cells into the batterypack:

• unburdened the exoskeleton
• picked up load force below CG
• transferred energy from castings through the pack
• mediated transient force travel into passenger compartment
• directed force to exoskeleton at pack perimeter
• batteries become frame stiffeners rather than dunnage
• enabled batterypack and exo to be integrated structurally

No doubt that structural 4680 batterypack is über cool advantage. But Cybertruck’s exoskeleton is structurally independent. It doesn’t need the batterypack to do its job.

Integrating the two components becomes superstructure to the vehicle:

• making Cybertruck more rigid
• more efficient
• easier to manufacture
• quieter(read less vibration noise)
• less mfg steps cutting cost
• less mfg time reducing production burden

Integration adds complexity that:

• eliminates battery cell replacement
• creates points of criticality where exo + pack connect
• independent componentry is lost to uni-body
• increases cost to repair major damage
• pack top skin/floorpan forces an assembly bottleneck

Good synopsis. I'll bet there's a study somewhere that would show that it is cheaper/easier for Tesla to simply remove the whole pack, grind it up for the materials and replace it with a newly manufactured battery pack than it would be to remove the pack, find and separate out a bad cell, replace that cell, reassemble the battery back, test it, install it back into the truck, and test it. (and that's WITHOUT having to chisel out the cell from that pink foam)

 

[tidmutt]

4680 hasn’t really been road tested, shakedown cruised and subjected to the real world yet.

Don't forget there are Model Ys running around with 4680 packs. I'd say that's a fair amount of real world testing.

 

[rr6013]

With all the resources dedicated to 4680...by the time they hit full ramp ( in 20 months) of CT's there should be plenty of 4680 cells to go around.

IDK there will be a big stockpile.… 4680’s are conditional. They will be manufactured in RT(realtime) with respect to Cybertruck production.

4680 shelf life must be maintained. Unlike cheese where it rotates position on a shelf, 4680’s demand BMS (battery management system) to preserve SoC. The high level flyover view is that Tesla’s battery production must dynamically ramp 4680 production to match Cybertruck mfgr demand in RT. Otherwise, somewhere somehow a warehouse is chock-a-block full of 4680’s all cycling on BMS.

On a timeline 4680’s are manufactured, charged, stress test cell thermal runaway, discharged, recharged by BMS; measured and graded then match-selected into modules into which Tesla then builds bandoliers that get assembled into packs. Packs then get charged, discharged, recharged by Tesla chargers; measured and graded in QC before passing onto a assembly line to become a new Cybertruck foamy structural batterypack.

Assembly chemically bonds castings in laser aligned perfection to the fresh batterypack which then moves further onto a vehicle assembly line for rolling chassis build. Assemblies in wishbones are added, hubs, calipers, brake and suspension complete a rolling chassis at the moment tyres(tires) are mounted. Tesla dynamically works to achieve battery delivery in reasonable range of time to effect the least 4680 charge bleed-off. Finally, completed, Cybertrucks self-propel over to charge stalls to final charge and inspection for QC signoff.

That timeline requires batteries built in lockstep with Cybertrucks. Tesla 4680 + Cybertruck is a real Tango in a range of time where too much wasted downtime degrades the 4680 SoC. Some allowance in time defines the time window. Tesla strives to synchronize its lines to avoid reject cells, reject modules, reject bandoliers, reject batterypacks and worst case reject Cybertrucks. Rejects anywhere along the timeline effectively affect GigaTX production as you can imagine it bleeds down the “margin” of production efficiency built-in to the process.