New 4680 Model Y Charge Rate?

[Bob Anderson]

I noticed something while watching the giga rodeo live stream. The current MY website says "Recharge up to 162 mile in 15 min" while the giga rodeo Model Y says 200 miles in 15 min. I attached snips. Am I looking into this too much? Or is this the new charge rate going forward for 4680 Model Ys?

Side thought, since the current 4680 MY is only 279 miles, a longer range version would theoretically charge even faster??

 

[Ogre]

Nice catch. I think it does give us some idea of charge speed improvements.

 

[JBee]

Yep I think you are correct in saying that the 4680 will charge and discharge faster because of the tabless design which reduces both electrical and heat path distances, and with it resistance losses that create heat. The shorter heat path also allows for better cell cooling. Pack charging rates are primarily constrained by heat issues, which the 4680 design was designed to overcome. A larger pack will also allow a faster mph charge rate.

Those numbers work out to a 23% charge rate improvement, and I imagine the same will be true for discharge.

 

[Bob Anderson]

Yep I think you are correct in saying that the 4680 will charge and discharge faster because of the tabless design which reduces both electrical and heat path distances, and with it resistance losses that create heat. The shorter heat path also allows for better cell cooling. Pack charging rates are primarily constrained by heat issues, which the 4680 design was designed to overcome. A larger pack will also allow a faster mph charge rate.

Those numbers work out to a 23% charge rate improvement, and I imagine the same will be true for discharge.

This is also the same charge rate as the 400 mile MS, but have to imagine if there was a 400 mile 4680 MY it could be closer to 250 miles in 15 min. That would be awesome.

 

[TomGriff]

Side thought, since the current 4680 MY is only 279 miles, a longer range version would theoretically charge even faster??

That will depend on whether the 4680 charges faster and/or improves efficiency. If extra range comes from a bigger battery (in terms of kWh) while charge rate/curve and efficiency stay the same then charging in terms of percentage will take longer while miles per hours would be the same. If longer range is because of better efficiency or if the 4680 has a better charge curve (and the charger can deliver the better curve) the charging will be quicker. If anyone knows definitely how the 4680 charges, I would love to see that. Guessing we will know pretty soon when the MY with 4680s start getting to customers. I assume that saved weight is going to improve efficiency, if that is the case then it will charge faster even if charging curve is similar.

To many people get hung up on peak charge rates. Efficiency is a key component to recharge/miles recovered speed which is one of Tesla's major advantages. On the other end of the spectrum, the Hummer has a great peak rate but its efficiency is so bad it is going to be slow charger.

 

[JBee]

That will depend on whether the 4680 charges faster and/or improves efficiency. If extra range comes from a bigger battery (in terms of kWh) while charge rate/curve and efficiency stay the same then charging in terms of percentage will take longer while miles per hours would be the same. If longer range is because of better efficiency or if the 4680 has a better charge curve (and the charger can deliver the better curve) the charging will be quicker. If anyone knows definitely how the 4680 charges, I would love to see that. Guessing we will know pretty soon when the MY with 4680s start getting to customers. I assume that saved weight is going to improve efficiency, if that is the case then it will charge faster even if charging curve is similar.

To many people get hung up on peak charge rates. Efficiency is a key component to recharge/miles recovered speed which is one of Tesla's major advantages. On the other end of the spectrum, the Hummer has a great peak rate but its efficiency is so bad it is going to be slow charger.

Normally on Teslas the limiting factor for the charge rate is the battery and not the charger rate itself. Further the charge rate tapers off the closer it is to full voltage regardless of battery size, this means until batteries match supercharging speeds (250kW) the batteries themselves will be at fault for increasing charging times. The 4680 by design should improve this. I agree that efficiency is a major contributor to effective mile per hour charge rates, and a lower weight will help achieve this, as well as performance.

 

[Crissa]

The Model Y coming out of the factory right now is that weird 'standard range' model and only going to employees with NDAs.

Now, if that model has that recharge rate... it probably means they exceeded their cooling target with the structural battery.

-Crissa

 

[Bob Anderson]

The Model Y coming out of the factory right now is that weird 'standard range' model and only going to employees with NDAs.

Now, is that model has that recharge rate... it probably means they exceeded their cooling target with the structural battery.

-Crissa

I suspect we won't know the full advantages of the 4680 until MY and potentially M3 both ramp 4680 production. The fact that there is already so much ambiguity around the 4680 MY proves this point.

 

[TomGriff]

Normally on Teslas the limiting factor for the charge rate is the battery and not the charger rate itself. Further the charge rate tapers off the closer it is to full voltage regardless of battery size, this means until batteries match supercharging speeds (250kW) the batteries themselves will be at fault for increasing charging times. The 4680 by design should improve this. I agree that efficiency is a major contributor to effective mile per hour charge rates, and a lower weight will help achieve this, as well as performance.

There are still mostly 150 kW superchargers in my area so newer cars will struggle to find 250 kW of course with their longer range (than my MS 70D) they will likely be able to skip the 150s to target the 250s.

 

[Ogre]

There are still mostly 150 kW superchargers in my area so newer cars will struggle to find 250 kW of course with their longer range (than my MS 70D) they will likely be able to skip the 150s to target the 250s.

Will be faster on the 150s too, since they will likely taper a lot later in the cycle.

 

[Bob Anderson]

There are still mostly 150 kW superchargers in my area so newer cars will struggle to find 250 kW of course with their longer range (than my MS 70D) they will likely be able to skip the 150s to target the 250s.

Let me guess, you're from the midwest? It's a dead zone out here for V3 chargers.

I think once a certain population goes to EVs, gas stations along major highways will be begging to switch to more charging stations. Which is good, because then you'll finally get decent restrooms and windshield squeegee. Also not feel awkward walking into an Olive Garden to use the bathroom.

 

[SAVFPV]

The Model Y coming out of the factory right now is that weird 'standard range' model and only going to employees with NDAs.

Now, if that model has that recharge rate... it probably means they exceeded their cooling target with the structural battery.

-Crissa

How do you know this ?

edit: I’ll add it sounds really legit! Not trying to cause any waves but wondering how you can always be so matter of fact? Insider?

 

[Crissa]

How do you know this ?

edit: I’ll add it sounds really legit! Not trying to cause any waves but wondering how you can always be so matter of fact? Insider?

It's the rumor.

...But matches the VINs observed and maybe the 'A' photo of the battery pack on their EPA filing.

-Crissa

 

[Ogre]

The Tesla Economist has some interesting theories about the weird 279 mile Model Y. He thinks the range is actually better than the EPA figures are deliberately understating the actual range.



I’m skeptical, but it’s certainly an interesting theory.

 

[Crissa]

It's some sort of herring, certainly, but I don't think they're sandbagging. Despite the naysayers, Tesla is absurdly risk-averse.

-Crissa