Solid State Battery Hype Train

[Luke42]

Understood, i.e. keeping a vehicle a long time. Many prefer to do that. I on the otherhand happen to change vehicles every 3-4 years. At least for the last 20 years.

As far as the promise of Solid State batteries, I am not confident a commercially viable version will happen anytime soon. Definitely not within 5 years. Sandy Munro did a tour of battery maker Amprius in Fremont, CA recently, they have some promising tech...although it is not pure solid state....but they make have something in 4-5 years.

My guess, if solid state becomes a reality it is going to be 2030 or beyond.

You can actually order solid state batteries now. They're LiPo batteries with a solid electrolyte intended for drone applications.

They're more energy dense than LiPos and safer too. They have a lower C-rating than regular LiPos, though, which means they're slower to charge/discharge.

A solid state battery pack can make it to your homelab with just a Google search and a few hundred dollars. I'm considering upgrading my lawn equipment to run off of them (2nd homebrew battery upgrade for most pieces of equipment), just for the nerdy fascination of it all.

 

[intimidator]

You can actually order solid state batteries now. They're LiPo batteries with a solid electrolyte intended for drone applications.

They're more energy dense than LiPos and safer too. They have a lower C-rating than regular LiPos, though, which means they're slower to charge/discharge.

A solid state batteries can make it to your homelab with just a Google search and a few hundred dollars. I'm considering upgrading my lawn equipment to run off of them (2nd homebrew battery upgrade for most pieces of equipment), just for the nerdy fascination of it all.

Let me know when they are commercially viable for automotive use in the 100-120 kWh range.....
It will be a game changer if the industry can get it figured out....while be cost effective.

 

[HaulingAss]

Its not range anxiety , its just wanting my EV to have the same range as the crappiest range Ice vehicle without negatively impacting the life of the battery.

If you were woken up by a call in the middle of the night and had to get somewhere ASAP that 300 mile range drops instantly to 240 since you will never be 100% charged unless you knew ahead of time you needed it , not that you are going to get that 240 either since its more likely to get about 10% less range in the tesla anyway so that 240 goes to 210. So the reality is about 210 miles on a charge if you completely ignore deep dischargeing and 150 mile range if you don't.

I don't worry about running low or finding a place to charge, I just HATE stopping on relatively short trips where I used to make the round trip without stopping in an ICE car. Thats why I am going for the 500 mile CT and would jump on a 300 mile range car with SS batteries .

I may even go LFP with tesla if they can get a MY size car with over 300 mile range.

Yeah, I always get calls in the middle of the night that instigate an immediate 240-mile road trip. I don't even have time to take a quick shower, I just have to leave in my bathrobe.

If only I had a battery I could keep fully charged to 500 miles of range I wouldn't have to worry about this. Just last month I got two of those calls. My friend in Oregon had slipped in the shower and hit his head and I had to get to the hospital in Bend, OR as quickly as possible, to see him off, before he died. Immediate middle-of-the-night road trip.

And just two weeks before that, there was a tax auction in Idaho for a ranch that was selling for back-taxes. My friend called me up at 3 am because he heard about it in a bar. He said if I could get there by the time the auction started in the morning, I might be able to be high bidder and pick it up for a song. Sadly, My car only had 260 miles of range on the battery and I would have needed to stop at a Supercharger for 12 minutes to add another 160 miles and I think that would have put me over the time limit for the auction.

This happens all the time.

Seriously though, the gas tank on my F-150 has about 12 gallons of gas in it right now. If I had to leave in a hurry, I would be sucking fumes in only 180 miles of Interstate. I hope no one calls me up tonight and istigates a road trip exceeding 180 miles that is so urgent I don't have time to stop for 10 minutes to fill up! If they do, I'm taking my Model 3 Performance!

 

[charliemagpie]

We have a million mile battery, but many may not make it that far.

Batteries are getting cheaper, and better. Then, for many people it may be worthwhile upgrading for a quarter of today's battery prices in order to double the range.

Whatever the format, they will all have the same fate.

Then there's also money back for recycling the old battery pack.

 

[flowerlandfilms]

I am agnostic on which tech will have a breakthrough. I am simply happy that everyone and his brother is into research to hit the big time in this new frontier.

What perplex me to no end is why Toyota was late in the game when they have the neighbour Panasonic right around the corner.

They teamed up, just incompetently...

https://global.toyota/en/newsroom/corporate/31477926.html

 

[SpaceYooper]

We have a million mile battery, but many may not make it that far.

Batteries are getting cheaper, and better. Then, for many people it may be worthwhile upgrading for a quarter of today's battery prices in order to double the range.

Whatever the format, they will all have the same fate.

Then there's also money back for recycling the old battery pack.

I don't think we know yet if the CT battery will be replaceable or upgradable given that it's part of the structure.

Does anyone know anyone who has recycled their old car battery and gotten money for it? From what vehicle, what size pack, and how much did they get?

 

[HaulingAss]

Can you elaborate on this? I didn't lose any miles from a full tank of gas from year 1 to year 10 on my current truck. The only decrease came when I put 35" tires on it. That was a few years ago and nothing has changed since. My previous F250 was the same and I kept the stock-size tires on it from 97-2015. That was a diesel. So I'm not sure what you mean by gas longevity being worse, but we know the batteries will lose somewhere between 5%-12% of their capacity over the first decade (most posts I've seen it happens sooner) and then it will level out but continue to slowly degrade.

Sure. I'm talking about the life of the powertrain. ICE cars typically become uneconomical to repair after around 200,000-250,000 miles, if that. Many die much earlier. EV powertrains, like that in my Model 3 will have higher average lifespans and cost less to get there. As an ICE car approaches it's EOL, it pollutes even more, gets worse MPG and has much worse reliability with things like alternators, injectors, mass air flow sensors, oxygen sensors, catalytic converters, etc. wearing out and incentivising replacement. Losing 5-12% of range is not going to cause people to retire the car.

The point is, EV's already have better long-term ownership costs, better longevity and more convenience than ICE and the convenience factor keeps improving as charging infrastructure is built into more locations every year that passes. Better batteries are always welcome, but they are not required to leave ICE in the dust.

 

[HaulingAss]

I don't think we know yet if the CT battery will be replaceable or upgradable given that it's part of the structure.

Does anyone know anyone who has recycled their old car battery and gotten money for it? From what vehicle, what size pack, and how much did they get?

Even totaled Tesla are worth a surprising amount of money but it's still a bit early in the game to have large amount of data on batteries reaching their end of life.

 

[Crissa]

I'm even more non-commital, but agree with SpaceYooper in essence.

1. We don't know. Cost, reliability, lifetime cycles, weight, energy density... All of these are unknowns at this time. There are other chemistries like LFP that are proving super-durable and cheap while Sulfur base batteries are just showing up as well. Solid state might end up like Solyndra.
2. So we can't know. I'd say more than ten, at least.
3. Definitely not. Current new BEVs beat new ICE in both carbon and the more important total cost of ownership. Within five years they're going to beat ICE in up-front price and it'll be game over.

Can you elaborate on this? I didn't lose any miles from a full tank of gas...

Really? If you have a twenty gallon tank, and your range is 500 miles... Losing as much range as HaulingAss's Model 3 would be less than one mile per gallon change.

Would you even notice?

Yeah, I always get calls in the middle of the night that instigate an immediate 240-mile road trip. I don't even have time to take a quick shower, I just have to leave in my bathrobe.

It's not like in that case the car has a full tank of gas, either. I just fill up when I can. Best to get there rested and ready and take the right stops and eat lunch to stretch the driving and be useless when you show up to help said relative or coworker.

-Crissa

 

[ldjessee]

I don't think we know yet if the CT battery will be replaceable or upgradable given that it's part of the structure.

Does anyone know anyone who has recycled their old car battery and gotten money for it? From what vehicle, what size pack, and how much did they get?

Saying that something structural in a car cannot be replaced makes no sense to me.

If enough vehicles get made that there is a market for it, someone will make them.

There are lots of Leaf and Prius battery replacement companies (though mostly on the west coast).
Friends of mine with a crazy old Prius had some battery work done (their odometer stopped at like 350,000 miles).

Solar panel prices of have dropped, efficiency has gone up, but no where near as much as price has dropped. I thing batteries still have efficiency/capacity to improve and prices to fall.

Now, if there are not enough of them built, then there will be no market... but given the reservations, I think there is a good indication that there will be a market.

YMMV