First time in the rain today.

[Gdeaver]

I used the process from Out of Spec detailing for the Pan the Organizers ceramic coating and love the results. I had my truck in to a service center and saw it parked next to 2 other Cybertrucks and the difference was shocking. The coating process with BKF makes the truck look so much brighter silver and easier to clean. I take it through traditional car washes with great results. Truck is mostly dry after the blow driers at the end. Just microfiber towel the rest and looks great.

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[ThatGuyBo]

Have you tried it? Citrisurf 77 will 100% turn it golden, and bkf turns it silver. Not sure if the "citri" in citrisurf means something else, but I'm kinda thinking you have these reversed. I didn't do a good job with the citrisurf and you can see the spots I missed that lack the golden hue lol.

I plan to do the 8yr ceramic thing once Pan The Organizer restocks and my m18 polisher arrives.

I am not going off of anecdotes or opinion, just the chemistry behind the discoloration.

BKF is fine but requires a proper passivation after using nitric or citric acid. A rinse with soap and water followed by a citric acid treatment for contaminant removal and passivation comes across as less of a hassle to me but to each their own.

Damage to the passivation layer will occur regardless of method used, and discoloration will occur over time due to the steel's exposure to oxidation and contamination.

Any good, thorough clean, should result in a silver tint/hue afterward while using BKF or Citrisurf. If you didn't get that with Citrisurf 77, you did not clean the steel correctly, apply the Citrisurf thoroughly, or you did not remove the Citrisurf completely. The issue is what occurs on the surface during and presents itself afterward.

To clear up some confusion, Bar Keeper's Friend Soft Cleanse as well as Bar Keeper's Friend Spray Foam contain citric acid as a secondary acid to accompany the oxalic acid.

Oxalic acid is a reducing organic acid, which means it donates electrons that can break down passive oxides, such as the chromium oxide that makes up the steel's passivation layer. Oxalic acid can lead to chromium depletion because of this, even at low concentrations.

Citric acid is a weak organic acid and chelator, this means it bonds to free metal ions and contaminants, such as iron, removing them without etching the passivation layer.

The steel's given hue is caused by a mixture of zinc oxide, chromium oxide, zinc chromate, and iron as well as other contaminants.

Bar Keeper's Friend will remove this layer including the desired passive layer (chromium oxide). The issue that exists with BKF is that both the oxalic acid and citric acid are on the surface at the same time, which, while good for cleaning, does not benefit the steel's surface when it comes the passivation as you are removing chromium via oxalic acid.

Citirsurf maintains the chromium layer while removing contaminates (such as iron) from on top of and in the passive layer through chelation without aggressively attacking the chromium present. If the citric acid is not removed after cleaning, you will get discoloration as you are not creating a clean surface for passivation anywhere needed and leaving contaminants on the surface. The citric acid helps form and maintain the existing passivation layer. The benefit of Citric acid is that it creates an ideal surface for passivation to occur.

Chromium is the main reason for the bright silver hue in stainless steel.
Chromium Oxide is formed as a passive layer and enhances the bright / silver-like hue we are discussing, while protecting the steel from contaminants and in turn discoloration. This also leads to the potential for a longer time between potential discoloration occurring. The discoloration is caused by other oxidation layers and contaminants that form/collect on the surface.
Yes, this layer will form if just removing the original passivation layer without acid but it is not the same as doing so through the removal with nitric acid or citric acid. Both of those increase formation of the passivation layer by creating ideal conditions.



Some side notes:
Iron will be leached from the stainless steel by the oxalic acid if the passivation layer is not present.
Nickel and Molybdenum from the also undergo dissolution when exposed to oxalic acid.

None of this should make a noticeable difference to the integrity of the steel over the lifespan of the truck.



If we are going to discuss anecdotal evidence, I last used citric acid on my CT back in October and have yet to reapply, only using water to remove contaminants. This includes multiple months long spans of leaving road salt, snow, and dirt on the truck with no cleaning whatsoever. I have yet to see any noticeable discoloration, nothing even remotely close to what it looked like before the first time cleaning it with citric acid, and nothing close to what I see on this forum or on out of spec detailing.

US standards for passivation of Stainless Steel parts : https://store.astm.org/a0967-01.html
https://www.galvanizeit.com/uploads/resources/astm-a-967.pdf

Nitric Acid and Citric Acid are recognized as the only two acids suitable for passivation on corrosion resistant steels by the SAE:
https://www.sae.org/standards/content/ams2700f/
https://web.archive.org/web/2016090...com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/AMS-2700-E.pdf

An easily digestible article about the discoloration of stainless steel surfaces that discusses the importance of passivation after cleaning.
https://corrosionlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Introduction-to-Rouging.pdf

This study shows that chromium dissolution occurs with Oxalic Acid: DOI: 10.3323/jcorr1991.46.367

Cleaning of stainless steel surfaces and oxide dissolution by malonic and oxalic acids study that shows Oxalic acid attacks bare stainless steel metal: https://doi.org/10.1016/0022-3115(95)00201-4

 

[Willwillx]

I am not going off of anecdotes or opinion, just the chemistry behind the discoloration.

BKF is fine but requires a proper passivation after using nitric or citric acid. A rinse with soap and water followed by a citric acid treatment for contaminant removal and passivation comes across as less of a hassle to me but to each their own.

Damage to the passivation layer will occur regardless of method used, and discoloration will occur over time due to the steel's exposure to oxidation and contamination.

Any good, thorough clean, should result in a silver tint/hue afterward while using BKF or Citrisurf. If you didn't get that with Citrisurf 77, you did not clean the steel correctly, apply the Citrisurf thoroughly, or you did not remove the Citrisurf completely. The issue is what occurs on the surface during and presents itself afterward.

To clear up some confusion, Bar Keeper's Friend Soft Cleanse as well as Bar Keeper's Friend Spray Foam contain citric acid as a secondary acid to accompany the oxalic acid.

Oxalic acid is a reducing organic acid, which means it donates electrons that can break down passive oxides, such as the chromium oxide that makes up the steel's passivation layer. Oxalic acid can lead to chromium depletion because of this, even at low concentrations.

Citric acid is a weak organic acid and chelator, this means it bonds to free metal ions and contaminants, such as iron, removing them without etching the passivation layer.

The steel's given hue is caused by a mixture of zinc oxide, chromium oxide, zinc chromate, and iron as well as other contaminants.

Bar Keeper's Friend will remove this layer including the desired passive layer (chromium oxide). The issue that exists with BKF is that both the oxalic acid and citric acid are on the surface at the same time, which, while good for cleaning, does not benefit the steel's surface when it comes the passivation as you are removing chromium via oxalic acid.

Citirsurf maintains the chromium layer while removing contaminates (such as iron) from on top of and in the passive layer through chelation without aggressively attacking the chromium present. If the citric acid is not removed after cleaning, you will get discoloration as you are not creating a clean surface for passivation anywhere needed and leaving contaminants on the surface. The citric acid helps form and maintain the existing passivation layer. The benefit of Citric acid is that it creates an ideal surface for passivation to occur.

Chromium is the main reason for the bright silver hue in stainless steel.
Chromium Oxide is formed as a passive layer and enhances the bright / silver-like hue we are discussing, while protecting the steel from contaminants and in turn discoloration. This also leads to the potential for a longer time between potential discoloration occurring. The discoloration is caused by other oxidation layers and contaminants that form/collect on the surface.
Yes, this layer will form if just removing the original passivation layer without acid but it is not the same as doing so through the removal with nitric acid or citric acid. Both of those increase formation of the passivation layer by creating ideal conditions.



Some side notes:
Iron will be leached from the stainless steel by the oxalic acid if the passivation layer is not present.
Nickel and Molybdenum from the also undergo dissolution when exposed to oxalic acid.

None of this should make a noticeable difference to the integrity of the steel over the lifespan of the truck.



If we are going to discuss anecdotal evidence, I last used citric acid on my CT back in October and have yet to reapply, only using water to remove contaminants. This includes multiple months long spans of leaving road salt, snow, and dirt on the truck with no cleaning whatsoever. I have yet to see any noticeable discoloration, nothing even remotely close to what it looked like before the first time cleaning it with citric acid, and nothing close to what I see on this forum or on out of spec detailing.

US standards for passivation of Stainless Steel parts : https://store.astm.org/a0967-01.html
https://www.galvanizeit.com/uploads/resources/astm-a-967.pdf

Nitric Acid and Citric Acid are recognized as the only two acids suitable for passivation on corrosion resistant steels by the SAE:
https://www.sae.org/standards/content/ams2700f/
https://web.archive.org/web/2016090...com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/AMS-2700-E.pdf

An easily digestible article about the discoloration of stainless steel surfaces that discusses the importance of passivation after cleaning.
https://corrosionlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Introduction-to-Rouging.pdf

This study shows that chromium dissolution occurs with Oxalic Acid: DOI: 10.3323/jcorr1991.46.367

Cleaning of stainless steel surfaces and oxide dissolution by malonic and oxalic acids study that shows Oxalic acid attacks bare stainless steel metal: https://doi.org/10.1016/0022-3115(95)00201-4

Interesting, i bkf'd mine, i might try the

Citrisurf
method. So you apply it and then rinse? How long do you let it sit?

 

[Willwillx]

2nd time the truck got wet today , outside of my ONR cleaning.... and holy hell, water spots are the worst, it might be more of puddles and dirt splashing than actual waterspots. Since i wasn't in the actual rain, just driving through the after rain. Truck looks like shit. Will need to wash it now lol

 

[Wildnine]

I used the process from Out of Spec detailing for the Pan the Organizers ceramic coating and love the results. I had my truck in to a service center and saw it parked next to 2 other Cybertrucks and the difference was shocking. The coating process with BKF makes the truck look so much brighter silver and easier to clean. I take it through traditional car washes with great results. Truck is mostly dry after the blow driers at the end. Just microfiber towel the rest and looks great.

Thants exactly what I am planning to do to my new truck, just about to trade in a foundation for a new AWD. How long did the BKF prep process take you? Did you use a DA or by hand?

 

[Gdeaver]

Thants exactly what I am planning to do to my new truck, just about to trade in a foundation for a new AWD. How long did the BKF prep process take you? Did you use a DA or by hand?

I did purchase a DA for the cleaning process. With that it took most of one day to do all the cleaning and Windex spray after. The coating process was smooth for me and took about 4 hours. I came back later and did all the exterior glass, plastic and cameras.

 

[klm2klm2]

Potential buyer…learning.

So, i assume with CT, no automatic car wash like regular cars? Just Windex / Sprayway and microfiber cloth?

FWIW, I send my CT through "touch" car washes with no issues.

 

[koolio]

I am not going off of anecdotes or opinion, just the chemistry behind the discoloration.

BKF is fine but requires a proper passivation after using nitric or citric acid. A rinse with soap and water followed by a citric acid treatment for contaminant removal and passivation comes across as less of a hassle to me but to each their own.

Damage to the passivation layer will occur regardless of method used, and discoloration will occur over time due to the steel's exposure to oxidation and contamination.

Any good, thorough clean, should result in a silver tint/hue afterward while using BKF or Citrisurf. If you didn't get that with Citrisurf 77, you did not clean the steel correctly, apply the Citrisurf thoroughly, or you did not remove the Citrisurf completely. The issue is what occurs on the surface during and presents itself afterward.

To clear up some confusion, Bar Keeper's Friend Soft Cleanse as well as Bar Keeper's Friend Spray Foam contain citric acid as a secondary acid to accompany the oxalic acid.

Oxalic acid is a reducing organic acid, which means it donates electrons that can break down passive oxides, such as the chromium oxide that makes up the steel's passivation layer. Oxalic acid can lead to chromium depletion because of this, even at low concentrations.

Citric acid is a weak organic acid and chelator, this means it bonds to free metal ions and contaminants, such as iron, removing them without etching the passivation layer.

The steel's given hue is caused by a mixture of zinc oxide, chromium oxide, zinc chromate, and iron as well as other contaminants.

Bar Keeper's Friend will remove this layer including the desired passive layer (chromium oxide). The issue that exists with BKF is that both the oxalic acid and citric acid are on the surface at the same time, which, while good for cleaning, does not benefit the steel's surface when it comes the passivation as you are removing chromium via oxalic acid.

Citirsurf maintains the chromium layer while removing contaminates (such as iron) from on top of and in the passive layer through chelation without aggressively attacking the chromium present. If the citric acid is not removed after cleaning, you will get discoloration as you are not creating a clean surface for passivation anywhere needed and leaving contaminants on the surface. The citric acid helps form and maintain the existing passivation layer. The benefit of Citric acid is that it creates an ideal surface for passivation to occur.

Chromium is the main reason for the bright silver hue in stainless steel.
Chromium Oxide is formed as a passive layer and enhances the bright / silver-like hue we are discussing, while protecting the steel from contaminants and in turn discoloration. This also leads to the potential for a longer time between potential discoloration occurring. The discoloration is caused by other oxidation layers and contaminants that form/collect on the surface.
Yes, this layer will form if just removing the original passivation layer without acid but it is not the same as doing so through the removal with nitric acid or citric acid. Both of those increase formation of the passivation layer by creating ideal conditions.



Some side notes:
Iron will be leached from the stainless steel by the oxalic acid if the passivation layer is not present.
Nickel and Molybdenum from the also undergo dissolution when exposed to oxalic acid.

None of this should make a noticeable difference to the integrity of the steel over the lifespan of the truck.



If we are going to discuss anecdotal evidence, I last used citric acid on my CT back in October and have yet to reapply, only using water to remove contaminants. This includes multiple months long spans of leaving road salt, snow, and dirt on the truck with no cleaning whatsoever. I have yet to see any noticeable discoloration, nothing even remotely close to what it looked like before the first time cleaning it with citric acid, and nothing close to what I see on this forum or on out of spec detailing.

US standards for passivation of Stainless Steel parts : https://store.astm.org/a0967-01.html
https://www.galvanizeit.com/uploads/resources/astm-a-967.pdf

Nitric Acid and Citric Acid are recognized as the only two acids suitable for passivation on corrosion resistant steels by the SAE:
https://www.sae.org/standards/content/ams2700f/
https://web.archive.org/web/2016090...com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/AMS-2700-E.pdf

An easily digestible article about the discoloration of stainless steel surfaces that discusses the importance of passivation after cleaning.
https://corrosionlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/06/Introduction-to-Rouging.pdf

This study shows that chromium dissolution occurs with Oxalic Acid: DOI: 10.3323/jcorr1991.46.367

Cleaning of stainless steel surfaces and oxide dissolution by malonic and oxalic acids study that shows Oxalic acid attacks bare stainless steel metal: https://doi.org/10.1016/0022-3115(95)00201-4

This is a fantastic scientific explanation of it. Thanks.

It sounds like I can just use Citrisurf77 to get ride of iron particles and bug guts, and not need to use an Iron X product. I have some Iron X from the Tesla Service Center (my delivery advisor gave me a half full bottle that they use to clean CT's) but haven't used it yet.

I'm going to buy some Citrisurf77, try that. If it doesn't clean everything, I'll add Iron X.

So far, had mine for 7 months and have only taken it both touchless and touch auto car washes. I don't have issues with water spots after it rains. Are there some? Yes...but mostly from my dogs drooling with their heads out the windows lol.

 

[machmax]

Not sure if this was already mentioned here but I just tried Meguiars Iron Remover this afternoon and I gotta say I’m pretty impressed by it. I don’t know what’s the long term protective qualities of it but as far as cleaning the surface, it works pretty good without much effort. I was really only trying to clean out the iron spots/specks but it also deep cleans the discoloration of the steel.

You can see in the last pic where I ended the test line.

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