TFL tests CT towing

[Cyber Man]

It absolutely is still required. If not used, weight is removed from the front wheel and extra added on the rear axle. That creates a dangerous vehicle.

A flat truck is not the goal.

If you have ever pulled a long trailer and had a semi pass by you, you start to understand just how important how important weight on the front wheels is.

ok, let me clarify - when I say WD is not needed, I don't mean to say weight will get distributed with self-leveling. I did extensive research on hitch systems before buying Hensley hitch. So fully aware of what you are talking about. I was told that WD hitches interfere with self-leveling suspensions in terms of "software". Manual airbag suspensions are fine with WD. I'm specifically talking about self-leveling suspensions that are controlled by software.

 

[Texarado]

You are right about WD, but I have heard that WD hitches can confuse the self-leveling software. A buddy of mine drives Range Rover. The service guys told him to not use WD. I don't know if that's valid for CT.

I would suggest asking about whether to use a WDH with a Cybertruck over on the Airstream-specific message board. I’d love to see the outcry at the question….. ? I say that only because the only recent EV thread over there was recently shut down. Lots of haters, Often for no reason.

That aside…. I remember reading something peculiar about the Range Rover self leveling. I thought even the RR manual may say don’t use WDH. But again, I thought it was something specific to the RRs.

 

[Texarado]

But make no mistake, Tesla is very close with CT. For my use case, if I get 120 miles range with the rig I tow (80% charging), and if I have good pull through charging network, then CT wins. I'm hoping Tesla can make this happen in another 3-4 years in West coast.

?This?

Just reasonably comfortably get me from Texas to Colorado or Texas to Taos area.

 

[Woodrick]

You are right about WD, but I have heard that WD hitches can confuse the self-leveling software. A buddy of mine drives Range Rover. The service guys told him to not use WD. I don't know if that's valid for CT.

Please don't use levelling software instead of weight distribution hitches. It's simply dangerous!!!

And it's hard to understand why it would confuse it. Load distribution hitches transfer the load equally to both axles. Just like putting a load on the CG of the vehicle.

 

[Woodrick]

ok, let me clarify - when I say WD is not needed, I don't mean to say weight will get distributed with self-leveling. I did extensive research on hitch systems before buying Hensley hitch. So fully aware of what you are talking about. I was told that WD hitches interfere with self-leveling suspensions in terms of "software". Manual airbag suspensions are fine with WD. I'm specifically talking about self-leveling suspensions that are controlled by software.

If the software gets confused with a weight equally placed on the axles, well, time to disable the crappy software.

 

[Texarado]

Please don't use levelling software instead of weight distribution hitches. It's simply dangerous!!!

And it's hard to understand why it would confuse it. Load distribution hitches transfer the load equally to both axles. Just like putting a load on the CG of the vehicle.

I don’t know the specifics, but here’s just one thread talking about it…

https://www.airforums.com/forums/f463/land-rover-warning-weight-distribution-hitches-193981.html

And who knows, it could be that Range Rover doesn’t have this is In their manual anymore. But at least at one point it did.

 

[Cyber Man]

I would suggest asking about whether to use a WDH with a Cybertruck over on the Airstream-specific message board. I’d love to see the outcry at the question….. ? I say that only because the only recent EV thread over there was recently shut down. Lots of haters, Often for no reason.

That aside…. I remember reading something peculiar about the Range Rover self leveling. I thought even the RR manual may say don’t use WDH. But again, I thought it was something specific to the RRs.

haha, yeah non-truck guys are not welcomed with an open arm in some forums. I was beaten down once for saying I towed with a German car. I can imagine what would happen if I say Cybertruck. I'll wait for someone to post WDH + Cybertruck in YouTube university . Hope you are right about RR. I hate to not use WDH with CT. When I did full axle load testing with AS, I was surprised on how much WDH makes a difference. It's day and night.

 

[Woodrick]

Take a watch
The Difference Between Using Weight Distribution and Air Bags to Level Your Load (youtube.com)

Using the vehicle's levelling only levels the vehicle while removing weight from the front wheels and possibly overloading the rear axle.

There was a thread going on in this forums. I was trying to do the physics in my head and could not figure out what vehicle levelling did ANYTHING to help the issue. And from watching this video, confirmed that load levelling vehicles don't do anything.

The goal of the problem is to distribute the weight, not level the vehicle.

The only thing that I could find wrong with this video is that they needed to remove another link on their hitch.

 

[Cyber Man]

Take a watch
The Difference Between Using Weight Distribution and Air Bags to Level Your Load (youtube.com)

Using the vehicle's levelling only levels the vehicle while removing weight from the front wheels and possibly overloading the rear axle.

There was a thread going on in this forums. I was trying to do the physics in my head and could not figure out what vehicle levelling did ANYTHING to help the issue. And from watching this video, confirmed that load levelling vehicles don't do anything.

The goal of the problem is to distribute the weight, not level the vehicle.

The only thing that I could find wrong with this video is that they needed to remove another link on their hitch.

100% agree that self-leveling IS NOT EQUAL to Weight distribution. It'll be extremely naive to think it's the same. Self-leveling will only add extra safety in terms of leveling the Tow Vehicle. That's all. I have seen this video. They are using manual airbag suspension. As mentioned above, there are threads saying WDH might interfere with the software self-leveling "while driving". I need to find out if that's true for CT.

 

[JBee]

Please don't use levelling software instead of weight distribution hitches. It's simply dangerous!!!

And it's hard to understand why it would confuse it. Load distribution hitches transfer the load equally to both axles. Just like putting a load on the CG of the vehicle.

A WDH will only able to transfer a load to the front axle by introducing a torque moment at the hitch that pitches the front of the tow vehicle down. This is like a suspension bridge, with your hitch as the suspension linkage.

This is in no way the same thing as physically having mass on the front axle, and depending on the orientation of the trailer in relation to the tow vehicle this will change as it I no longer in line with the force being created by the WDH.

This is not to say a WDH isn't beneficial in many cases, rather that proper load distribution is much more important than having a WDH redistribute mass because it was wrong in the first place.

Load distribution on trailers has various factors, including trailer wheelbase from hitch, trailer recommended tongue mass, total mass, vehicle rated hitch mass, wheelbase to hitch, vehicle CoG, turning center etc.

The point here is that no two trailers or vehicles are the same, so applying a torque over the hitch is not necessarily going to achieve the same result everytime.

Consider how the torque reduces when driving around a corner and when you need the front downforce most.

As for deactivating the software because of using a WDH, this is a very poor choice.

Most vehicles have a rear ride height brake controller that limits rear brake force depending on downwards load in the rear. Many are just mechanical but some electronic. The are necessary to stop the rear wheels from locking up under heavy breaking. A WDH effectively changes this, but also increases variability when turning. Which are all dynamics that need to be compensated for when electronicly controlled.

 

[Cyber Man]

A WDH will only able to transfer a load to the front axle by introducing a torque moment at the hitch that pitches the front of the tow vehicle down. This is like a suspension bridge, with your hitch as the suspension linkage.

This is in no way the same thing as physically having mass on the front axle, and depending on the orientation of the trailer in relation to the tow vehicle this will change as it I no longer in line with the force being created by the WDH.

This is not to say a WDH isn't beneficial in many cases, rather that proper load distribution is much more important than having a WDH redistribute mass because it was wrong in the first place.

Load distribution on trailers has various factors, including trailer wheelbase from hitch, trailer recommended tongue mass, total mass, vehicle rated hitch mass, wheelbase to hitch, vehicle CoG, turning center etc.

The point here is that no two trailers or vehicles are the same, so applying a torque over the hitch is not necessarily going to achieve the same result everytime.

Consider how the torque reduces when driving around a corner and when you need the front downforce most.

As for deactivating the software because of using a WDH, this is a very poor choice.

Most vehicles have a rear ride height brake controller that limits rear brake force depending on downwards load in the rear. Many are just mechanical but some electronic. The are necessary to stop the rear wheels from locking up under heavy breaking. A WDH effectively changes this, but also increases variability when turning. Which are all dynamics that need to be compensated for when electronicly controlled.

I agree! Wouldn’t it be nice to have a feature in CT to instantly see the axle load all the time, and have some warnings when we are exceeding limits? It’s my dream feature honestly.

 

[Texarado]

I agree! Wouldn’t it be nice to have a feature in CT to instantly see the axle load all the time, and have some warnings when we are exceeding limits? It’s my dream feature honestly.

Could be an OTA update depending on what sensors are on the car. I wouldn’t put it past them…. Or count on it….

 

[Woodrick]

A WDH will only able to transfer a load to the front axle by introducing a torque moment at the hitch that pitches the front of the tow vehicle down. This is like a suspension bridge, with your hitch as the suspension linkage.

This is in no way the same thing as physically having mass on the front axle, and depending on the orientation of the trailer in relation to the tow vehicle this will change as it I no longer in line with the force being created by the WDH.

This is not to say a WDH isn't beneficial in many cases, rather that proper load distribution is much more important than having a WDH redistribute mass because it was wrong in the first place.

Load distribution on trailers has various factors, including trailer wheelbase from hitch, trailer recommended tongue mass, total mass, vehicle rated hitch mass, wheelbase to hitch, vehicle CoG, turning center etc.

The point here is that no two trailers or vehicles are the same, so applying a torque over the hitch is not necessarily going to achieve the same result everytime.

Consider how the torque reduces when driving around a corner and when you need the front downforce most.

As for deactivating the software because of using a WDH, this is a very poor choice.

Most vehicles have a rear ride height brake controller that limits rear brake force depending on downwards load in the rear. Many are just mechanical but some electronic. The are necessary to stop the rear wheels from locking up under heavy breaking. A WDH effectively changes this, but also increases variability when turning. Which are all dynamics that need to be compensated for when electronicly controlled.

I'm looking at a picture in my head of the physics of the setup. Indeed, the moments on the front wheels are EXACTLY the same. But then you start into some sort of crap of "having the mass on the front axle" We can't, because it is behind the hitch, but the moment is indeed there. It's the same as semi-drivers moving the wheels on the trailer up, it adjusts the moments.

And duh, two trailers, even the same trailer packed differently will have different weight distribution requirements. Many times I've had to adjust the chains to get more or less weight spread.

And yes, disabling the software may be a poor choice, but isn't it better than having the software mess up the weight and balance of the rig?

And think back to the video. Levelling the vehicle with the vehicles levelling created a significantly unstable rig. Front wheel weights were way off. Are you trying to tell me that a weight distribution hitch is more dangerous?

 

[JBee]

I'm looking at a picture in my head of the physics of the setup. Indeed, the moments on the front wheels are EXACTLY the same. But then you start into some sort of crap of "having the mass on the front axle" We can't, because it is behind the hitch, but the moment is indeed there. It's the same as semi-drivers moving the wheels on the trailer up, it adjusts the moments.

And duh, two trailers, even the same trailer packed differently will have different weight distribution requirements. Many times I've had to adjust the chains to get more or less weight spread.

And yes, disabling the software may be a poor choice, but isn't it better than having the software mess up the weight and balance of the rig?

And think back to the video. Levelling the vehicle with the vehicles levelling created a significantly unstable rig. Front wheel weights were way off. Are you trying to tell me that a weight distribution hitch is more dangerous?

Did you want me to legit answer those questions?

I'm not sure exactly what moments you mean, seems to me you're having a lot of them though?

 

[mcot2222]

Aerodynamics will be the BIGGEST differentiator. Something as simple as the distance between the front of the trailer to the back of the Cybertruck is going to make a difference. Is the trailer a smooth side or shingled? How many air conditioners? Single or tandem? Or the LP tanks enclosed or open. Spare tire on back?

Before you poopoo any of these, think of just how hard that Tesla goes to decrease the drag coefficient. Who would have thought that door handles added so much drag? Wheel covers? Tires? Front air dams?

People also tend to forget that hauling big trailers kill the gas mileage of the tow vehicles. Trailers of this size are common to result in single digit MPGs.

You can do the conversion. The CT is getting around 40mpge towing that big trailer. A gas truck would be around 10-15.